Here We Go Again 1994 Redux

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by D.B. Cooper, May 31, 2022.

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  1. amp-rat

    amp-rat Member

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    There's two separate issues imo; The _G_ problem is a gang problem, efficient policing and incarceration can help break that.
    second is that a person that is bent on taking life will, regardless of the tools used.

    The media has for over 30 years been saying the best tool for destruction is_, and the crazys are listening. If they were touting red bricks I'm sure that'd be the new favorite.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2022
  2. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    How about an enhanced background check, scaled according to age. For example, if you're under 25, you'd have to attach, to your Form 4473, either 3 references from members of the community, or a certificate from a psychologist. Then, in turn, a background check would be run on those individuals. Yeah, that would be inconvenient.
     
  3. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    The harm from any one individual gun owner is at least equally minimal.* Young people are very impressionable and mostly woefully uninformed about history and our political system, very bad combination for voting.

    *What is the percentage of gun crimes committed per year divided by the number of gun owners? Likely infinitesimal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2022
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  4. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Bingo.

    Remember the lady in NJ a couple years ago who got a restraining order against her ex and applied for a permit to be able to legally carry? And NJ wasted months? And then the ex came to her house and killed her with a KNIFE?
     
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  5. JCooperfan1911

    JCooperfan1911 Member

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    The problem is people or so mixed up, confused, and sick mainly as a result of the media and feeling helpless in a wacky world. There are more screwed up in the head kids today than ever in our history due to numerous compounding factors.

    We need to fix mental health and caring for one another first. One thing you virtually ALWAYS here about these shooters is they were shunned and ostracized. Often they were weird and unconventional, and instead of being accepted by their peers or shown compassion, they were ruthlessly bullied.

    People aren’t good to each other. I suppose they never will be.
     
  6. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    I mean no disrespect and I'm certain your comment comes from a sincere perspective. But what exactly is wrong with our mental health system? The last time I looked in a phone book, back when phone companies published phone books, there were pages and pages of psychiatrists and psychologists. So it doesn't appear to me that we have a shortage of mental health professionals. When I hear people complain about our "mental health" problem, I immediately think what they really mean is we need more "Free" health care. I have observed that there is no such thing as a free lunch, it just means someone else is paying for it.
     
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  7. HPCadm17

    HPCadm17 Member

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    Politicians will look you in the eye and declare with a straight face that they don't want to take away your firearms. They understand that repealing the 2A is next to impossible. What they are doing is going around the 2A by enacting laws that render it null and void.

    The goal of allowing a manufacturer to be sued for the misuse of their product, applied specifically to firearms manufacturers, is to bankrupt the manufacturer and/or make it too expensive for them to do business here, effectively blocking the sale of their products. Sure, you have the right to keep and bear arms, but good luck being able to buy one. As usual, this does nothing to deter the criminal element because there is a glut of products available on the black market. So once again, the criminals can easily acquire firearms, but it's much more difficult for you.

    In my state we also need to complete a purchase form that is faxed to the state police to be kept on file, tying the firearm to the buyer. This makes confiscation or mandatory "buybacks" easier, and if the state thinks you own a particular item but you cannot produce said item, you're a felon and face prison time. Can you guess who did not complete a state purchase form and thus has no record of ownership with the state? The criminals, of course. So they get to keep their firearms while you need to turn yours in.

    I think many members of a certain party go along with the gun control schtick because they have been duped by those who have crafted the true agenda of rendering the citizenry defenseless against subjugation. They reason their way into it without considering the fallacy of their arguments. With the emotional pleas to "Do Something" they are driven to grab onto the low-hanging fruit to show that they are "Doing Something" but never have any intent to do the hard work of addressing the root causes of violence, "gun" or otherwise, in this country.
     
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  8. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):
    1. Norway — 1.888
    2. Serbia — 0.381
    3. France — 0.347
    4. Macedonia — 0.337
    5. Albania — 0.206
    6. Slovakia — 0.185
    7. Switzerland — 0.142
    8. Finland — 0.132
    9. Belgium — 0.128
    10. Czech Republic — 0.123
    11. United States — 0.089
    12. Austria — 0.068
    13. Netherlands — 0.051
    14. Canada — 0.032
    15. England — 0.027
    16. Germany — 0.023
    17. Russia — 0.012
    18. Italy — 0.009
    In addition, a 2018 CRPC study ranked the U.S. at number sixty-four in the world in terms of mass shooting rates per capita.
    (see below)
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2022
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  9. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    The operative word in gun control is "control," the ultimate exercise of which is the endgame of most of our elected officials and all of the liberal gladhanders who truly believe they know what is best for you.

    They will cajole, slander, lie, obfuscate and worse to achieve their goal of total control all the while smiling and saying it is for your own good. For a safer society. Think of the children. Well, I am.

    I say resist them at every turn. Don't bargain. Don't compromise. Never willingly surrender one iota of control to them.

    Shall not be infringed. It sure seems that since 1934 there have been a lot of infringements. No more.
     
  10. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    There may be an unintended consequence to the policy of deinstitutionalization that our nation has engaged in. Is society better served by focusing on trying to prevent those who are truly sick and constantly interacting with society from acquiring firearms, or by making an effort to protect society from truly sick individuals, who are determined to cause pain to society, by institutionalizing them?

    I'm not suggesting a return to the 1890's, but I wonder if there is a way to track mass shootings by year and the per capita mental institution population by year. As more and more of the population that would have been institutionalized was remanded to clinics, home care and half-way houses, did mass shootings increase? Were shooters taking, or had they been prescribed, anti-psychotic medications? Certainly, even if there is a correlation, it wouldn't prove causation, but it would be worth considering.

    Will these proposed anti-civil rights laws actually result in fewer deaths, or just a change in the means of causing harm?
     
  11. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    Whilst the underlying point you have is almost certainly correct with regards to the intentions of many of the gun grabbers, the magazine thing is pretty ridiculous.

    "Oh look! This limited capacity magazine won't even fit in my gun!"

    Magazines can be designed so they will work. I have some 10 round mags for my G22 for example. They're the same length, they just have a rib inside to restrict the width of the stack, and so limit capacity.

    I mention this because illogical reasoning is a poor defense. We must make sense with our arguments if we intend to convince others of the virtues of our position.
     
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  12. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    You said "Last I checked, the U.S. has about 1.15% of the world's mass shootings."

    I interpreted that to mean the number of mass shootings (incidents) in the U.S. is 1.15% of the world total. The statistics that you cite relate to the death rate per million. Naturally, countries with a lower population will have a higher death rate with the same number of incidents. (Norway is skewed because of one incident involving Anders Breivik.)
     
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  13. Artg56

    Artg56 Member

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    How do you reconcile restricting people under 21 when it comes to firearms while acknowledging that they are mature enough to vote, drive, serve in the military and make decisions on their gender identity when they are 8-9 years old. You can’t with any sincerity have it both ways.
     
  14. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    Amen. It was only a couple years ago the left was pushing to drop the voting age to 16 wasn't it?
    The only equalizer a lot of 18-20 year old women have in protecting themselves and often their children is a firearm. I guess the left would have them all wear whistles.
     
  15. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Limits on possession and/or purchase by citizens under 21 are mostly promoted by people who are very far from the under 21 age bracket. This crap will have direct impact on my kids (16 & 12) and I oppose any blanket restrictions based solely on age. For somebody to even suggest age 25 as a needed cut-off shows an extreme disregard for the citizens of this country. Once again, it's all patronizing stupidity.
     
  16. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Anybody who supports any additional legislation relating to gun control, even if it seems minor, doesn't understand how the left works when it comes to gun control. Any minor change made today will be expanded up on the future.

    We should not give up an inch.
     
  17. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    If a person is not mature enough to own a firearm then they are not mature enough to vote, join a branch of the military, decide their gender, purchase real estate, enter contracts, make major economic decisions or do any of the other things that are primarily limited to adults.

    They are functionally demoted to the same status as an ex-convict... .
     
  18. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    Comparing the Global Rate of Mass Public Shootings to the U.S.’s Rate and Comparing Their Changes Over Time

    34 Pages Posted: 14 Dec 2018

    John R. Lott
    Crime Prevention Research Center

    icon-small-multipleversion.png There are 2 versions of this paper

    Date Written: November 12, 2018

    Abstract
    The U.S. is well below the world average in terms of the number of mass public shootings, and the global increase over time has been much bigger than for the United States.

    Over the 18 years from 1998 to 2015, our list contains 2,354 attacks and at least 4,880 shooters outside the United States and 53 attacks and 57 shooters within our country. By our count, the US makes up less than 1.15% of the mass public shooters, 1.49% of their murders, and 2.20% of their attacks. All these are much less than the US’s 4.6% share of the world population. Attacks in the US are not only less frequent than other countries, but they are also much less deadly on average.

    Out of the 97 countries where we have identified mass public shootings occurring, the United States ranks 64th in the per capita frequency of these attacks and 65th in the murder rate.
    Not only have these attacks been much more common outside the US, the US’s share of these attacks have declined over time. There has been a much bigger increase over time in the number and severity of mass shootings in the rest of the world compared to the US.
     
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  19. Remington1911

    Remington1911 Member

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    Stole this from justice.gov

    Penalties for Possessing a Prohibited Firearm The statutory maximum for knowingly possessing a firearm with an altered serial number is five years and/or $250,000. 18 U.S.C. § 924 (a)(1)(B). Under the sentencing guidelines, a defendant with no prior record and one gun would likely receive approximately 15-21 months for possessing a sawed-off shotgun or a firearm with an altered serial number. A defendant with a substantial record including at least one conviction for drug trafficking or a crime of violence is eligible for a sentence of approximately 70-87 months for the same offense. Possessing an unregistered silencer, short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device or a sawed-off shotgun is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and/or 10 years in prison. 26 U.S.C. § 5871. For the possession of a machine gun manufactured after May 19, 1986, the statutory maximum is 10 years and/or $250,000. 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2).

    The Penalties for a Violation of § 924(c) Penalties under this section vary depending on the type of firearm, how the firearm was used and whether the offense is the defendant's first violation. All sentences under this section must be served consecutively to any Offense Penalty Standard case Not less than 5 years Brandishing the firearm Not less than 7 years Discharging the firearm Not less than 10 years A short barreled rifle or shotgun Not less than 10 years A machine gun, destructive device or silencer Not less than 30 years Second or subsequent conviction Not less than 25 years Second or subsequent conviction and the gun is a machine gun, destructive device or silencer LIFE

    Now in my book if we just work with this a little and say ANY crime, and ANY prohibited person it would go a long way to fixing things. You do not pass go, straight to the federal pound you in the a__ prison. We could bump this up to a pure 30 for any gun crime at all, and life for a second strike. Judges have zero leeway with this, set in stone.

    How many times do you hear on the news this is the X time this person has been arrested for armed robbery. If the dirt bags know it is a fast track to striped sunlight for the rest of your life it MIGHT make some think twice about it.

    Edit to add.....I wanted to include the link to the doc.

    https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-me/legacy/2012/06/01/Summary%20of%20Federal%20Firearms%20Laws%20-%202010.pdf
     
  20. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    If it's a skill, it's one learned though repeated beatings and jumping to conclusions (and discovering, like the coyote, that was over a ravine).

    What is nearly universally not recognized is that creating a new law creates new crimes, which creates new criminals. New laws always cause more crime.

    Politically, the people at the bottom edge of the age spectrum are easiest to disenfranchise. They typically have the least investment in the political process, and represent the least "cost" to the political class.

    The most dangerous age cohort for drunk driving is 40-45, but, it was far easier to demonize 18-21 and disenfranchise that age group, It's not like the 18 y/o were going to stop donating to political causes.

    So, too, with firearms. 18-21 will own the least quantity of firearms, they will not have the high-paying jobs that make fat political donations, or sway those with strong political influence. So, it's easy to pitch them overboard, politically.

    One of the major differences between firearms and politics is that firearms are concrete, objective, finite; politics is not. Politics are subjective, ephemeral, appearance over substance. This is also why mixing political discussion with firearms discussion so often flies off the rails--there are functionally no rails to define things.
     
  21. Charlie Martinez

    Charlie Martinez Member

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    We can all discuss reasonable arguments to disprove the efficacy of more gun control but the unfortunate reality is that stricter gun control measures by certain factions in our country have nothing to do with crime reduction and everything to do with achieving the ultimate goal of destroying democracy as we know it gaining complete & total control of our country. We are not just fighting for gun ownership rights, we are fighting for every God given right we have enjoyed since our Founding Fathers wrote our magnificent Constitution.

    No matter what gun control measures pass this time or the next it will not stop there. Stopping crime is not their end game. Their real intent is the complete destruction and control of America and one very important element that guarantees their stronghold on power once they have it is the removal of all weapons (and ammunition) from the hands of the general public.

    It is said that the first step in solving a problem is identifying the problem. Since crime is not the real problem in the gun control agenda nothing will be gained by arguing points and facts that we all know by now are going to be ignored. The source of all the vicious attacks on our liberties, including private gun ownership, rises from a variety of groups that share certain common characteristics; They all hide under the cloak of the currently not so "Democratic Party", they all passionately hate America and they are all fanatical in their intent to completely destroy America. It is they that need to be identified, flushed out of their hiding holes and properly addressed.

    I hope that every liberty loving American realizes and understands what it is really happening in our country. When or if that realization happens in time we will ignore the fictitious dividing lines that have been intentionally created to weaken us and join as one to fight & defeat these devils.
     
  22. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I disagree, @Charlie Martinez , The main goal is to destroy our republic and impose pure democracy - that is, mob rule.
    Once the law-abiding can no longer defend themselves then the opportunists and "revolutionaries" can just vote themselves into possession of whatever they want (they think).
    I doubt that the truly wealthy and powerful will allow that to happen, though... .
     
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  23. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    I’m curious if anybody knows the latest law/made up on a whim rule about domestic terrorism.

    If a person describes the Second Amendment as a means for the people of America to defend themselves from a tyrannical government, does that make that person a domestic terrorist? Are we there yet?
     
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  24. MrShooter

    MrShooter Member

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    Well, for one thing, back in the 70s and even 80s dang neared every county has some sort of a state home or mental facility of some sort. Nowadays it's politically incorrect to put mental detectives away, they have to be free to self destruct.
     
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  25. Charlie Martinez

    Charlie Martinez Member

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    I don't know. I kind of think we do agree.
     
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