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Hevi-Shot Defensive Load?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by TEX, Sep 3, 2007.

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  1. TEX

    TEX Member

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    Hevi-Shot has come out with a load they call “Dead Coyote”. Because the shot is heavier than lead, I can understand that it will penetrate better than lead and certainly better than steel, but just how much more? Supposedly the “T” shot (20 caliber) will go completely through a gooses body at 40 yards. I do not know what this would equate to in ballistic gelatin.

    I would think that even normal lead BB size shot would be more lethal than 00 Buck, IF you could get it to penetrate to the same depth as 00 Buck, simply because there would be a great deal more holes (70 vs 9-12). The reality is that smaller shot just won’t penetrate deeply enough and the very reason 00 Buck is used instead.

    I can also understand that heavier shot may give a tighter pattern at a given distance over lead, but just how much tighter?

    The Dead Coyote comes in 00B (12 pellets of 33 caliber) moving at 1350-fps and “T” Shot (51 pellets of 20 caliber) moving at 1300-fps. Now, I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that if the “T” shot would penetrate as deep or nearly as deep as standard lead 00 Buck or 0 Buck, then it would be more effective because it is making about 40 more holes than the Buck, even though the “T shot pellets are 3.3 mms smaller

    00B (12 pellets) 33 caliber (8.38mm) @ 1350-fps
    T-Shot (51 pellets) 20 caliber (5.08mm) @ 1300-fps

    Does anyone know where I might find information on the penetration ability and patterning of this Hevi-Shot load (Dead Coyote). I suspect there is a web site somewhere that may have this info, but dang if I can find it. If the T-shot will take down coyotes at 50+ yards, I am thinking it will penetrate adequately. If so, as a self defense round used on 2 legged goblins, it would be devastating on such out to 15 yards (home defense distances). I am thinking that if it will go through and through on a gooses body at 40 yards, it should probably make a 13-15” deep hole in ballistic gelatin. I base this on pure guess work and have no data to back it up. This is why I am asking for leads and opinions here.

    I wish they would make a load in #2 Buck (270 caliber) because I bet the penetration would be adequate and it would have nearly double the pellets of 00 Buck. I would think they could also make a fairly good 20-guage round using #2 Buck.

    Please, serious replies only

    Thanks - TEX
     
  2. Mannix

    Mannix Member

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    I'm not so sure, it isn't even pure tungsten and the surface area-mass ratio for T shot pure tungsten is still worse than that of pure lead #4 buck, so I REALLY doubt it will penetrate as well.
     
  3. cpileri

    cpileri Member

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    some math;

    Total frontal area of 51 pellets of T-shot (20cal)= 10.33 square cm

    So if that area was a circle, it would have a minimum (i.e. every pellet touching a maximum number of its neighbors, edge to edge along each pellet's equator) diameter of ~3.63 cm. IOW, this describes the 'perfect pattern': all pellets spread out to present to the target with no space between any of them, a flat 'sheet' of pellets.

    BTW: if we estimate that a shot column expands at approximately 1-inch per yard travelled, and the 12-ga starts out at 72cal, which is 1.82 cm, then it will disperse to 3.6cm within a few feet of the bore. This phenomenon doesn't happen, but whatever. This is all hypothetical anyway, right?

    Problem is each pellet's mass is unknown, but when we find out what the density (in grams/per cc) is for the hevi-shot; we can begin to guess at the penetration vs lead ( which is 11.6 g/cc). So, what is the density of the hevi-shot? Must be on the website somewhere...

    Even with known densities, the best we can do is compare the penetration of lead shot vs the same size hevi-shot, and extrapolate (unless a test has been conducted that I am not aware of, which is entirely possible.)

    Total frontal area of 00B is : 12x pi x .419 x .419= 6.6 sq.cm. In a circle with each pellet touching a max number of its buddies-in-flight being 2.1 cm in diameter; and will be at this diameter almost upon leaving the .72-inch bore.

    So yes, if the shot columns -in this example, more of a 'disk' than a 'column'- were compared and theoretically achieved dispersion to the maximum before any pellets physically separated from any other, the frontal areas at impact would be 3.63cm (1.43 inches) diameter hole vs a 2.1 cm (0.827 inch) diameter hole; a huge difference in favor of the t-shot...

    If...IF... the hevi-T-shot penetrates well enough. Sounds like a job for the box-o-truth!
    C-
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2007
  4. cpileri

    cpileri Member

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    density

    OK, according to their website:
    http://www.hevishot.com/faq.html
    the density of Hevi-shot is as follows
    " What is the density of HEVI-SHOT® compared to other metals?
    The density of steel is about 7.8 g/cc. Lead shot runs about 11 g/cc. HEVI-SHOT® is about 12 g/cc. "

    So there you go.

    Now the 11.6g/cc i posted above was for PURE lead. So if lead shot is actually lead plus a few % antimony or some other, less dense metal; then the "about 11 h/cc" that hevi-shot quotes is most likely accurate.

    Remington loads up a few loads with hevi-shot and calls it
    " Shot material alloy of tungsten, nickel and iron features a 10% higher density than lead "
    and
    " 12.0 Grams/CC Pellet Density | The optimal pellet density..." http://www.remington.com/library/press/2006/2006-2.asp
    So, fine, I'll go with 12g/cc on the hevi-shot.

    I am still looking for penetration comparison.

    In any case, it will be interesting to see where this thread goes.

    C-
     
  5. Guido2006

    Guido2006 Member

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    Hevi-shot is more effective than lead, but is the maybe ~10% more effectiveness worth a huge premium in price?

    Hevi-shot shines compared to steel when lead is not an option. There are no restrictions on giving the bad guy lead poisoning.
     
  6. Kimber1911_06238

    Kimber1911_06238 Member

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    hevi shot is crazy expensive and not worth the extra price (unless you're waterfowl hunting and can't use lead). For HD, but extra lead and practice with it....
     
  7. cpileri

    cpileri Member

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    more

    No idea if the source is accurate but for composition data:
    "...HS, though, is approximately 50 percent tungsten, 35 percent nickel and about 15 percent iron alloy..." www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/hevi_hitter/+hevi-shot+penetration&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

    Same website compares shot penetration:
    -Number 4 pellets (0.13-inch diameter) at 20 yards only here. Sure they tested out to 60 yds, but how big IS your house?

    In ballistic gelatin:
    No 4 lead: 3.26 inches.

    No 4 hevi-shot: 3.63 inches. (an increase of 0.37 inch, or +11.35%)

    At Remington ( http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotshell/hevishot_buckshot.htm ) they quote an increase of 18% with their Premier® HEVI·SHOT® Buckshot.

    So if we take the penetration of lead 00B from here www.tacticalforums.com listed as ~12 inches in ballistic gelatin, and add 11.35% we're looking at 13.362 inches. 12 inches is considered adequate, and the smallest shot that will reliably penetrate 12" is thought to be No1Buckshot.
    But from here http://www.tacticalworks.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html we see No4Buck (lead, not copper) penetrating to 14-inches, and BB shot to 11-inches. Your T-shot (20cal) falls right between. So maybe Hevi-T-Shot at 13.36 inches is the ticket after all! (depends on the gel calibration, etc. So what we really need is a head-to-head comparison)

    13.36 inch penetration is approximately equivalent penetration to No4B lead, but with an increase in frontal mass of 71.3% (the equivalent of the difference in area btw a 2.1cm hole and a 3.6cm hole). In reality, there will not be a hole for each of these 51 pellets until much farther away from the bore. How far. I duno. Google patterning and check the distance that 51individual holes show up on the target.

    BTW, if you're after penetration, Hevi-shot loads their own buckshot and slugs, even!
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=136165&t=11082005
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=572564&t=11082005

    Thanks for getting me intersted in the topic.
    C-

    p.s. i have always taken the opposite approach thinking about home defense: i want HOLLOW lead spheres to be made so that the still hit with the impact of 33-caliber holes but bend all out of shape if they hit walls, hopefully not penetrating into non-targets very well. Obviously, my reasearch has stopped at the idea phase. C-
     
  8. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Theoretically, it sounds good.

    Practically, it costs too much to assure functionality in the gun, patterning, and sufficient practice at various ranges (pretty much yard by yard out to 25 yards) to assure the level of familiarity I want to have with any defensive load I will be using.

    For the time being I'll stick to conventional lead alloy 00 loads out to 25 yards, and rely on slugs beyond that range, or as needed in closer. I can afford to shoot the conventional 'carry ammo' out of my shotguns on a regular basis and replace it without concern. People who buy hyperexpensive defensive ammo tend to leave it under spring pressure in tubular magazines for far too long, as they are reluctant to shoot it. Sometimes that results in bulging shells that resist or refuse chambering- not my idea of a good time.

    Shoot what you carry, carry what you shoot, and assure fresh ammo in the gun on a regular basis- better idea, IMHO. YMMV of course.

    lpl/nc
     
  9. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Neither here nor there
    All things be equal, Hevishot should penetrate more. It is denser and is not soft.
     
  10. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Member

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    I agree with Lee.

    'd rather take the difference in money that I'd spend on Hevi-shot vs. 00Buck, and buy more 00Buck to practice and store vs. any perceived or real performance gains offered by using Hevi-shot loads. I do believe that I'd come out ahead.
     
  11. krimmie

    krimmie Member

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    No offense, but I think we're over analyzing this. Just throw in some 00 and forget it.
     
  12. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    I see a bit of a paradox.

    Lots of folks here say they use birdshot to avoid overpenetration. Hevi-shot penetrates better than lead.

    While y'all work this out, I'll stick to good ol' 00 in lead.
     
  13. lbmii

    lbmii Member

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    I have considered the T-Shot load myself. What is the weight of the individual HS T Shot? Are these three-inch shells? I am thinking the recoil might be excessive. Plus performance might be better compared to 3-inch lead buck shells. I have considered 2 ¾ Magnum and 3-inch shells for self-defense but there is an increase in my recovery time to get a second shot.
     
  14. DiN_BLiX

    DiN_BLiX Member

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    #4 lead shot is what i use for HD in my mossy 500. Ive got some 00 too but it just sits in the can.
     
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