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Hi indian made guns (again) and gunsmithing

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Bobsen, Jan 24, 2013.

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  1. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Faux twist pattern on plain steel barrel.

    Hi all
    Years ago in my youth, I saw a plain steel barrel that had been given a twist pattern.
    The guy who showed it to me said he had done it by binding the barrel with very hairy string with a slant and then rusted the barrel with a solution of copper sulphate and ferric chloride sprayed on with a misting spray.

    Well I've never forgotten that and now have a reason to try it.

    I got me a length of steel tubing and polished it to experiment on
    I wound on the string and made up the solution sprayed the metal and put it in a home made rusting chamber for a few days.
    When I cleaned it there was very faint pattern but not the result I was expecting.

    Has anyone ever tried the above with a result or does anyone have a way of simulating a twist pattern on plain barrels?

    Also looking for some ideas on lock tuning?
    Thanks for the time and trouble Bob
     
  2. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    Except it is not "the Indian factory"..., not all of the components come from a single source. I have seen this assumption before.

    I have seen this assertion before as well. The Indian muskets that I own were bought as parts, shipped to the country where they were finished, and then sold ready to shoot. None were marked "decorations" when shipped to Canada, nor when shipped to me.

    Of course not, nobody does, but you may not understand exactly where the risk occurs base on this wording.

    You don't know about an American made barrel any more than the Indian barrel, and some barrels made in America are from hydrolic tubing. While the tubing may be grand from either country, the breeching of the barrel, even when done in America with American parts, may be wrong. I have seen such improper breeching in American made barrels ordered from a respected supply house. And if somebody DIY's breeching the barrel from all American made parts, what guarantee have you against that?

    You are also assuming that that the shooter is a flawless loader, regardless of the origin of the rifle or musket barrel. CVA has an abysmal record of blowing barrels compared to the Indian made muskets barrels. So do other inline guns, based on actual blown barrels. Even with a proofed Pedersoli barrel, you assume every time that the musket or rifle is fired, the owner has used black powder, not overloaded the charge, and has properly seated the bullet. Here's a "pipe bomb" on a range for you. (Not an Indian musket, and the dudes to his right are unaware and assume he is doing it "right").

    Why would this suddenly change your viewpoint? It's their "word" that it's safe to fire, just as it's the word from the muskets I get from Canada or the barrels that I get from Track of The Wolf. No testing has been done.

    Finally there is the Proofing Myth. Yes MYTH. MYTH MYTH MYTH!!! :banghead:

    You see the proofing of a barrel tells you that the barrel passed proof at the proof house and was that way when it left. Proofing in no way, shape, nor form, gives you an indication of what condition the barrel is in today. This is why folks who have previously proofed barrels in valuable guns, send them back for reproofing before firing them. The previous owner or owners may not have kept good care of the barrels, and although you might detect massive pitting in a muzzleloader with a digital inspection camera, you won't necessarily find cracks. Besides, have you ever seen the barrels of black powder guns at a range or match internally inspected with such a camera? I have been shooting muzzleloaders for more than three decades, and have never seen such an inspection. I've never heard of such an inspection. And YES I have found Italian proofed, modern muzzleloading barrels that were so roached on the interior, although they looked fine on the exterior, to be unsafe to fire due to deep pitting.

    Based on the actual factual records of barrel failures, you are far more at risk from an American shooter improperly loading an inline, than from a properly loaded musket barrel made in India.

    LD
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  3. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Not all parts are the same

    Hi Dave
    I agree with all the points made with the exception on the first one ref Indian factories.
    That's only because I've been there and seen it for myself can't speak for the video but the methods and environment were much the same, from what I witnessed the place I went made nearly everything.
    I was very interested in the barrels and the breach from what I saw and was told?
    The barrels were made from reclaimed drawn tubing I ask were it cam from and he said old oil cans from the pump for hydraulic fluid.
    From this and further questioning it became apparent old oil can was the term in English for an oil tanker being broken up in Bangladesh.
    The pump for hydraulic fluid meant the pipe work used to run hydraulic lines on the ship thus the source for the barrels.
    Breaching was done using a course thread and the breach plug was screwed in full tight before marking and then forging the tang which to me seemed the best way of ensuring the thread was fully engaged.
    All other parts were forged by hand then hand filed i.e. lock plate, cocks, pans etc.
    I have to say I did not see the spring making or frizzed hardening as these parts were laying about on the bench.
    Each lock was filed and fitted by two or three guys working together.
    In the next room there were two guys working on the stocks each equipped with a limited number of hand tools worked at the stock from roughing out to finished ready to sand stain and finish
    I was told the guns metalwork went away to be polished before stain and polish to wood work and final assembly.
    I spent about half a day with them and can only say as I did right at the beginning if these guys had better tools and workshops they would make much better finished guns ther skill levels were exceptional given the working conditions.
    I would say they take great care to ensure that they will not blow up when fired they recognise they sell guns as decorators to overcome Indian export laws and the fact that a market exist for there products, after all if every other gun when fired was blown-up they would soon lose the market.

    If they were not made to shoot why go to the trouble of making each bit as near to original as possible they could cut so many corners and still make the thing look right if it was never meant to be fired.
    Also proofing might not be the absolute test but its better than no test at all and it's been used for hundreds of years to protect the user and those close to him.
    Always good to hear good discussions.
    Keep it up and keep it coming all the best Bob
     
  4. Pancho

    Pancho Member

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    Bob, did you say that the stock was made from Teak? I wouldn't be surprised seeing that they don't have much curly maple in India. In any case the wood looks great.
     
  5. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Teak stocks

    Hi
    Yes it was teak but what a variation blanks were so different from high figure
    to very plain,from red to white and everything in between but from what I was all but a few looked ok once finished.
    How do you know if the guy sucking on the pipe is foolish or clever????
    Cheers Bob
     
  6. Olmontanaboy

    Olmontanaboy Member

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    God I'm jealous of you guys land of the free and nutty as hell Bob

    Hello Bob from England, what do you mean by the Nutty as hell remark?
    Would that apply to the Nutty as hell Americans that saved your country in WWll?


    british_ad.gif
     
  7. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Nutty as hell

    Good ol boy
    I guess you are a bit sensitive, only meant in good humour, so done take a fence try the gate instead.
    Hope you enjoy the comments around the subject and if you can add any experience please feel free to do so.
    Good shooting and have a great time living your a long time dead.
    Cheers Bob
     
  8. bainter1212

    bainter1212 Member

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    Bob,
    Thanks much for sharing your project. Keep us updated. I am especially interested in a range report once you get around to it. Accuracy from this rifle would deepen my already good impression, gained from your description of these esteemed Indian craftsman. I have a question though....how was their attention to detail? Particularly in the final inspection process.
    BTW as a "yank" I must say that yes we ARE all nutty as hell, and I couldn't be prouder of it.
     
  9. Olmontanaboy

    Olmontanaboy Member

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    That's fine Bob, but in just a few post you bad mouthed America several times when someone had an opinion other than your own.

    But having read most of what is said about Indian guns. It's always good old USA the spouts the most crap.

    I never heard so much crap from know it alls in my life, if it is proofed by a licenced proof house ( Oh sorry USA don't have one)

    So pull your head out of your butt

    As far as the Indian guns, not my cup of tea. I only handled three of them and the word crude is all that comes to mind.
     
  10. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Ol Montana boy

    Hi
    Please accept my deepest apologies, if I upset you it was not my intention. Because someone stated "in my opinion" something I felt was said without a true knowledge of the subject makes me point out "in my opinion" their lack of knowledge on the subject
    I am as proud as hell of being an English man as you obviously are about being an American, power to your elbow (by the way I would be just as scathing with anyone spouting crap no matter what the nationality)
    With ref to the Indian Guns,
    I agree they are a bit crude and could do with a bit more finish in the final product.
    But I believe they are a good basis for a rebuild and with skill could be a much cheaper alternative to the higher quality guns available.
    If you read the factual points I describe within this thread I think you will agree they make interesting reading and food for thought.
    What anyone chooses to believe is up to them but I try to balance all I have put with sound logical sense and report the facts as I see them.
    As I said at the beginning no offence intended just good fun all round
    Kind Rgds Bob
     
  11. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Indian final inspection

    Hi bainter1212
    From what I saw the boss man looked over the finished gun and if he thought it OK it went on the finished pile ready to ship.
    I wasn't there long enough to see all the process but the guys who built the locks when finished, put them into a vice fitted a flint and tested for a spark and function. Not sure if this was for my benefit or done every time.
    The overall impression I got was that they were building a gun not a decorator
    They seem to care were it mattered and were open about shipping without the touch hole drilled only to overcome export laws.
    I ask them if they were aware that 90% of there guns would end up being fired
    They said they thought it was 100% and laughed.
    Hope this helps I will keep everyone updated with the project over the coming months and eventually give a range report once finished which I think will be about a year away due to work commitment.
    I'm glade were all mad as this would be a dull place if we all thought we were normal.
    Kind Rgds Bob
     
  12. Olmontanaboy

    Olmontanaboy Member

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    Fair enough Bob
    Have a good day
    Jim
     
  13. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Jim

    Thanks Jim
    If I'd have really been angry I would have said arse not butt
    What's your interest in blackpower shooting after all I'm only jealous because we can't pick up a long rifle and go hunting or down the range when we feel like it
    As I said the laws here are draconian and yours have a long long long way to go before they become half as restrictive which will never happen.
    I have one question is this the right forum for gun smithing advise? I love the politics and the banter but not much help coming this way with the gun smithing questions?
    Have a great day and look forward to crossing swords again
    Your new found English mate If you wish?
    Cheers Bob
     
  14. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    General overall response

    Even though I hate Government involvement in anything firearms related, I really wish sometimes the USA had a national proof house for just this type argument.

    L.D.

    This is getting tiring. As a dealer of these decorations, You try to defend these things that are basically crap by making making your own assumptions about these things and trusting the people that are SELLING THEM to you without any background investigation. I believe in the adage "TRUST BUT VERIFY". Bob has a better perspective as he has actually been there to India to see these things made. He is, I believe, tryng to find a good cheap base to start from to build a suitable safe rifle which he might achieve since Britain has a proof house to test his Baker before putting it on the range where he might endanger other people.

    I know proofing is not foolproof but it is a time proven method of testing barrels prior to their use on a firearm. No I can't be sure another individual might think Smokeless powder that is black in color is "Black Powder" so it is "okay" to shoot in a black powder only firearm. No I can't be sure a neighbors gun is not over charged, impoperly cleaned or loaded or any of the many other things that can go wrong. There are no guarantees but I can take a few minimal steps to protect myself and those around me from unnecessary risk.

    Proofing a barrel is one of these.

    My experience with these Indian made firearms has not been favorable. Most of the ones I have seen were malfunctioning to some degree, and 4 were blown up due to problems in the breech area. The internals and frizens were too soft for more than very light use. Hardening and re-fitting were often required to make the locks function. While the indian pieces might make a blank gun, These pieces I have seen were NOT SUITABLE for even moderate live fire. This is why the N-SSA and I refuse to approve them for our live fire events. I even refuse to work on them any more.

    I don't consider myself a gunsmith but I have been shooting for 45+ years and working on guns for 40+ years. This includes doing some Browning, Remington and S&W warranty work, making parts from scratch and refinishing stocks. I have built 2 Muskets from original parts with new wood and barrels. I have also improved many Italian guns to make them shoot better and be more durable. (As a rule I am not a fan of the Italian guns, but that is another topic.) This plus 40 years of shooting and having won a National and state titles make me feel competent to say something is not safe.

    These are some things that we agreed on:

    1. If an Indian made gun is shipped to the USA, it is either shipped as a "decoration" with the vent hole undriled that must be drilled after it arrives in the USA or;

    2. It is shipped unassembled as parts for later assembly once it gets into the USA.

    3. We are told This is done to get around Indian Gun laws.

    While you accept this, I don't. It appears the gun laws they are avoiding is not India's but the USA. They are avoiding US laws that require imported firearms to be proofed. They are avoiding the law that requires imported firearms to be numbered and the manufacturer AND Importer be identified. They are avoiding the US Consumer protection laws that allow us to sue someone that puts a faulty product on the market after a failure. The USA relies on this to make sure American made barrels are safe, not proof houses. (Major Producers or barrels in the US test the heck out of their barrels and vet their mfg. process before putting barrels on the market.)

    It might help to know that India does make firearms that are sold on the import market. Why don't they comply with these laws?

    I have checked with the importers of these pieces and they will not identify or provide any information that might calm my fears. They call this "Proprietary information" on their web sites. Check My previous posts. I have gone over this before.


    Quote:
    The Indian manufacterer agent said this: For a while, You could have watched a video on the N-SSA web site where their sales agent said this to the camera.

    From the owners of these pieces I have spoken to, they were shipped with the barrels in one box and the rest in another part so they could be called "gun Parts" again dodging the law.


    Please ID the American maker of any GUN with hydraulic tubing for a barrel. I don't know of any.

    If theyfollow the law, I am more likely to trust them

    FACT OR YOUR ASSERTION. Show me the numbers or study.

    Cosmoline

    Go to almost any Re-enactment. You will find used muskets and flintlocks at very reasonable prices. Buy them straight from the individual. If you wait until they are in the hands of a sutler, they will be already adding their profit back into the price. In short pay the individual what a sutler will pay him for a used gun.

    Bob:

    I think I have seen what you are trying to do with the barrel. Try wrapping the barrel in leather with the twist you wish to achieve then apply your bluing finish, be it black or rust.

    Another possibility is that you may have seen a Damascus Steel Barrel that had been browned? The Damascu Method gives the barrel a Twist finish sometimes if it is not polished out.

    As I understand it, one of the principal markets for these things is Hollywood's movie industry. The days are long gone of using trap doors as muskets in historical films. Hollywood magic makes the noise, flash and smoke. The N-SSA National skirmish has been recorded several times to record soundtracks for several CW movies in the last several years. With real live fire, the movies are much better.

    As for your initial premise, are these guns a good cheap source of parts for building a suitable BP Rifle/Musket, My verdict was no. When I finally put tape measures to them, the measurements were too far off. Also, by the time you put the tools, work and time into them, you can buy an Italian gun, harden the parts, bed the barrel and get a good firing gun for the same money without the unknowns and risk. Unless it is for something not available elsewhere, I would stay away from them.

    One advantage you have is you went there and eyeballed them. They may put a little extra into your project becausse they don't know if you might actually show back up on their doorstep again. You have the advantage of a Proof House to test your barrel so it might work out for you. Good luck with your project

    Olmontanaboy:

    Keep Defending the USA. But I don't think Bob has any ill will towards me or the USA. Just a basic Disagreement between gun lovers.


    For all:

    The main thing is be safe. Guns are dangerous if not handled properly. Since the distributors and importers are so secretive and using every loop hole they can to get these pieces into the USA around our laws, I tend to err on the side of caution and preach against these things.
     
  15. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    Bob:

    Missed the note on lock tuning.

    Go to www.n-ssa.net and the bulletin board. There are several articles on the board and links to detailed articles on lock tuning.

    I will try to find the link to the article and post the link here,
     
  16. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Hi Hawkeye

    I think we all agree safety first not just for yourself but for everyone around you.
    Just to make it clear I love all mankind, I think your a lucky bunch in
    good-ol-USA for having and preserving your gun laws like you do.

    Personally "and I know this is going to cause a lot of comment", I can't see why anyone would need to buy a automatic, self-loading sub machine gun over the counter no questions asked?

    Way I see it the game would not be fit to eat after a blast from one of those?? and it would be dam expensive on targets at the range. but as long as its not required to cause harm, I guess each to his own.

    Back to the project I am still looking for someone with experience in improving the trigger pull and lock timing on a flintlock to give me some advise.

    Other than that good to meet people, just stop to think how we could have done this one hundred years ago!! impossible!!.
    Keep you power dry.

    Rgds Bob
     
  17. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Hi Again Hawkeye

    We must have been on line at the same time thanks for the link
    Bob
     
  18. Olmontanaboy

    Olmontanaboy Member

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    Personally "and I know this is going to cause a lot of comment", I can't see why anyone would need to buy a automatic, self-loading sub machine gun over the counter no questions asked?

    Way I see it the game would not be fit to eat after a blast from one of those?? and it would be dam expensive on targets at the range. but as long as its not required to cause harm, I guess each to his own.

    Well Bob, first off. Over here in the land of "nutty as hell" (your words) you can't buy self-loading sub machine guns over the counter no questions ask period. It's against the law and has been since the 30's. Some states allow purchase of machine guns only after a class 3 permit is applied for and granted after going through all the background checks and meeting the requirements.

    The firearms that the news media is all flustered about are semi-automatic look-alikes.

    Just to make it clear I love all mankind, I think your a lucky bunch in
    good-ol-USA for having and preserving your gun laws like you do.


    There you go again, in one sentence you praise us for preserving our gun laws, and in the next you say you can't understand it.
    The Second amendment is not about duck hunting.
    It's what keeps us citizens from becoming subjects. You know :)

    You might read this again. It's an actual ad from a the American Rifleman magazine published in WWll.
    zsxdezzz.gif
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  19. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    Bob

    For BP shooters, This is a very handy link

    www.nwtskirmisher.com

    Go to Useful information. Lots of good information
     
  20. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Hi olmontanaboy

    I guess it shows just how much we know about each others culture we speak a similar language but might as well be German sometimes.
    Point taken, now bugger off and let me get on with sorting this gun I'm fed up with splitting hairs over this.
    I hope you have a good life and may all your dreams come true but your like a bad hound dog I offer you a hand of friendship and you bite it
    Good to have spoken with you
    Bob
     
  21. Olmontanaboy

    Olmontanaboy Member

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    Hey Bob, I'll leave when I'm dam ready. You make inflamitory statements and lash out when someone disagrees with them, your full of crap and can stick your bitten hand up your backside. Oh yeah, if it weren't for us, you ungreatful clown, you WOULD be speaking German.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  22. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    refinishing stocks

    Hi All

    Hope you having a nice day, including olmontanaboy :cuss:

    I wondered if any one has any experience of working with teak wood including refinishing.
    I will want to make it look more like walnut? I have some knowledge of refinishing shotgun stocks which might stand me in good stead.

    Thanks once again for any help given

    Keep your powder dry and your dog out of the water, or is it keep you dog dry and your powder out of the water!!!

    All the best Bob
     
  23. bainter1212

    bainter1212 Member

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    Hey Bob,
    You might think of starting another couple of threads asking very specific questions about things you want advice on......at this point nobody is willing to stick around and read all the posts from thick-headed people, dogging you because they have no sense of humor. I have some experience refinishing stocks, however I wouldn't know where to even begin with teak. However there is a sticky, I believe on this board, that shows a great method for refinishing gunstocks.
     
  24. Bobsen

    Bobsen Member

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    Bainter1212

    Thanks for the advice I will do just that I guess you just stop using this thread
    Sorry I'm not that familiar with forums as this is the first I have joined successfully
    But great fun all the same
    As I said before many thanks
    Bob
     
  25. Charleville.69

    Charleville.69 Member

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    Indian made musket quality

    Hi, a new member, not wanting to best a dead horse, but as I understand it, only one has failed and it was due to improper cleaning.
     
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