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High velocity buckshot for defense. Why?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by peacebutready, Feb 25, 2020.

  1. peacebutready

    peacebutready Member

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    I came across buckshot ammo below. It is for defense according to Hornady. 8 pellets going 1600 fps. That's a substantially higher velocity than most buckshot loads. Why is buckshot traveling at such a high velocity needed? Do some people claim buckshot doesn't penetrate deep enough at standard velocities? Oddly, their reduced recoil buckshot load is touted for hunting medium game.

    https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-00-buckshot#!/
     
  2. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Every ammo manufacturer is not only making cartridges - but also selling them.... It would be pretty tough to beat the basic 2 3/4" OO buckshot round with nine .33cal pellets but we see that all the time (or at least claims to that effect).

    If you ever saw, up close, the actual results of a load of 00 buck into a human torso you wouldn't find a need for anything else... at least that's my opinion... What physically shuts down an opponent in the shortest amount of time is deep core penetration into vital areas. Basic 00 buck does that with around an 18" penetration.. That makes it a real fight ender within its range limits. We found that you could expect a pattern spread of one inch per meter from the muzzle in a standard 18" barrel riot gun with an improved cylinder choke.
    At seven meters - a seven inch pattern, at fifteen meters - a fifteen inch pattern. That translates out to all nine pellets in the torso with a center of mass hit out to about fifteen meters... Like I said - a fight ender... Most home defense situations are very likely to be at less than seven meters by the way...

    Are there rounds on the market that provide a bit more power or a much tighter pattern - absolutely. Whether a home defender needs those advantages is another matter entirely in my opinion...
     
  3. Starter52

    Starter52 Member

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    Standard buckshot loads are fine for home defense. No need to go high velocity or 3" magnum. In fact, "reduced recoil" loads are often recommended.

    Buckshot is plenty lethal at in-house distances.
     
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  4. Fiv3r

    Fiv3r Member

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    It's what I call the Meth Angle of marketing. Stopped is stopped. Dead is dead. There isn't much that standard loads won't take care of regarding human physiology. That's a lot of firepower concentrated in an area that keeps the human machine going. Not to be graphic, but at home invasion ranges anything from the groin to the face is almost certainly going to end the fight if 00 is used.

    However..."almost certainly" isn't good enough for some. "What if they are hopped up on drugs or wearing body armor or taking cover behind a trained Kodiak bear...who is also wearing armor and is on drugs?" Better crank it up to 11.

    I'm good with the standard 00 loads, armored meth bears withstanding.
     
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  5. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    It isn't, velocity sells.
     
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  6. film495

    film495 Member

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    My opinion is pretty much any shotgun load at 12 or 20 gauge, one COM hit = drops a person like a sack of potatoes at self defense ranges of 10-20 feet.
     
  7. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Bingo.

    There's nothing "wrong" with this, per se. Neither is there anything particularly advantageous.

    However, it does make a good marketing scheme for the people who make them.
     
  8. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Contributing Member

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    Dunno that it's *needed*, per se, but it should help extend the engagement range for buckshot by some amount.
     
  9. George P

    George P Member

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    Why 1600? because some folks will think that bigger and faster is better
     
  10. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 Member

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    Maybe so it has enough energy to take out the bad guy, and the annoying neighbor next door!
     
  11. George P

    George P Member

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    And their cow and the neighbor on the other side of that one.
     
  12. peacebutready

    peacebutready Member

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    As I noted in the original post, the company advocates using their low recoil load for hunting and the high velocity load to defense. It seems like it should be the other way around as higher velocity means the range at which a person can harvest game like deer is extended.
     
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  13. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    Penetration requires velocity.
    1600fps buckshot would be a powerful pig puncher.
     
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  14. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    With buckshot, velocity deforms pellets. It spreads or even ruins patterns and most importantly, it results in LESS penetration. This has been demonstrated in penetration tests. Reduced "recoil" <velocity> buckshot loads will have less pellet deformation and can often have deeper penetration (other factors like pellet size, mass, hardness, plating, and wad design also matter).
     
  15. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    I'm really surprised that you get much deformation with hard, plated, buffered buckshot. But I digress, I haven't seen it tested.
    Perhaps you have.
     
  16. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Soft lead balls penetrate less as speed increases because they deform more. But plated balls designed to work at the greater speeds should work fine. The downsides to speed with any weapon, rifle, shotgun or handgun are using projectiles not designed for that extra speed. If the projectiles are designed to work at those speeds then it won't hurt.

    That said, for what I intend to do with buckshot standard loads will probably be enough. But speed can be a good thing. I'd like to actually shoot some. If recoil is manageable and cost isn't prohibitive they might be worth a look.
     
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  17. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    A shotgun is an incredibly versatile weapon.
    A couple of those hi-vel buckshot loads can turn a dove hunt into a coyote hunt.
     
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  18. John Joseph

    John Joseph Member

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    The LEOs around here are sold on Federal Flite Control Bucks, but the ranges and situations LEOs face are different than that of a home owner trying to defend his nest. At across the room range, any 00 is going to leave a permanent impression
     
  19. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    Unless it's very hard, buffered, and well cushioned, the extra velocity in that Hornady load may well do more harm than good. I don't believe that I could adequately defend a "general rule" with evidence, but it will remain my opinion for the foreseeable future, that 1250 fps is about perfect velocity for lead shot.
     
  20. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    The only true plus I can think of with HV buckshot is greater reliability in semi-auto defense guns...especially inertia-action types.

    My former agency issued Benelli M-1 shotguns beginning in the early 1990's (I moved over there from my first agency in 1994). Those guns weren't reliable with the low-recoil buckshot/slugs. This was also true much later when I went to Rangemaster school in 2011 and another agency that was there with me had newer Benelli's. Those, too were jamming with low recoil rounds and those guys had to swap for full boat rounds from the presenting agency to complete the course. The 870's and 590's that were present with myself (870) and the other guys ate the low recoil loads all up... and saved our shoulders a bit of pain, too :thumbup:. (50 straight 1 oz slugs and 00 buckshot fired prone, on top of the 100+ fired kneeling and standing, adds up to misery for the next few days.)

    The new autos with the multi-gas ports for various loads will probably shoot the low recoil ones just fine, I just don't have any first hand experience with that combo to give an honest answer.

    Stay safe.
     
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  21. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

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    I always thought that #4 buck would be nasty. 41 pellets in a 3" 12ga inside 30 yards would have to be a surgeons nightmare.
     
  22. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I used to agree. I had the unpleasant experience of being attacked by dogs repeatedly. Once I got into my truck bed, the next was while I was turkey hunting. Dog came at me and at about 18 ft a load of #4 hit her hard. And the next shell hit her partner in the attack at the same distance. It ended ones fight and killed the other, but the first ran off and lived long enough to rack up vet bills and let the meth-head owner swear out a statement lighting me up for animal cruelty. Bird shot is bird shot, and that’s just that. It doesn’t have the mass to penetrate and be reliably effective. Had the dog been anything bigger than she was and I would have been a chew toy. If it doesn’t say BUCK or SLUG then forget about using it for defense.
     
  23. film495

    film495 Member

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    Real world experience FTW
     
  24. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Don't take this the wrong way here, but how is your opinion on this backed up?

    The plain fact of the matter is that for any given gauge, the load being fired from it DOES make a difference. Bird shot from a 12 gauge is really no different than bird shot from a .410...you just have more shot pellets from the large gauge. What is the penetrating and damage capability of an individual pellet, compared to a more massive (heavier) sized shot, slug, bullet? It's minimal. So shooting someone with a lot of bird shot doesn't do anything more than possibly make a bunch of little, relatively shallow, holes. And that's highly dependent upon what they're wearing and how far they are.

    And that's not even considering the pattern spread (which, for the sake of your stated assumption of self defense ranges of 10-20 feet is probably fairly minimal on spread).

    The reality is that "any" shotgun load really will not "drop a person like a sack of potatoes". There really is no substitute for mass of the pellets in self defense scenarios. You need buckshot or slugs for reliable shotgun self defense capability.
     
  25. film495

    film495 Member

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    I changed my opinion based on the real world experience example that was posted. All I had ever seen was a video of a guy shooting buckshot at a side of beef, and the hole/wound at 15 feet was substantial, but someone posting they hit a dog - and it did not drop - I stand corrected, I have no actual experience that was just my opinion, which is now different, and think birdshot is probably good - but, not that good.
     
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