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Highwaymen, the movie

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by tipoc, Apr 7, 2019.

  1. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

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    I enjoyed the film and the period firearms. For similar era entertainment with a focus on firearms, including the full auto 45 that Dillinger liked, I highly recommend Stephen Hunter's G-Man, about the hunt for Dillinger. Very similar, albeit somewhat more action packed and with an interesting twist.
     
  2. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Is this movie available on DVD???? ----I couldn't find it on Amazon......
     
  3. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

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    New movie. Netflix original.
     
  4. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Oh. *Sigh* :thumbdown:
     
  5. otisrush

    otisrush Member

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    I liked the movie - a lot.

    On the gun front I did notice something that made me think they were paying attention to details: One of the shotguns was stated (in the dialog) as a Remington Model 11. My dad had one and always told me you could tell the difference between the Remington and Browning versions based on end of the grip by the trigger: The Remington was cut off flat and the Browning was rounded.

    When Hamer had the "Remington Model 11" in his hand - the end of the grip was flat.
     
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  6. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

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    Agreed here. There is also a subtle difference in the way the upper tang transitions into the back of the receiver (the “hump”). In the auto 5, that transition is more angular and sharp. In the model 11, it seems more curved and slanting.

    They did get the shotguns right in the movie.
     
  7. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    It was a good movie....I will leave the comment on the movie there as the mod does not want us talking about it.....

    Now the guns.

    Gun store scene....ah yea nope. First off we always go, man a Colt Monitor (it was not used in the BC deal) was a $500-ish gun.....in todays money that is close to $10,000....A thompson was close to $4,000 in todays money. I highly doubt a small town gun shop would be so well stocked....it is not like they made a bunch of monitors....I want to say around 100 of them. It was a very expensive gun, and no one had money back then.

    I want to say the law enforcement was supplied by the military with a BAR.....the other guns are borrowed, like the model 8.

    And on to the 8....(as we are a gun forum and can't talk about other fun stuff) Head over to the great model 8 for some good info on the "frank hamer" rifle. There is to be a model 81 in the ranger museum and sorry folks that can not be the gun used in the BC deal. First off it is an 81, it is marked property of.....and this all dates the rifle to well after the ambush. Most people in the model 8 area pretty much agree there is no way it can be an 81.

    Most people believe it was a BAR on load from the military, the 8 then shotguns and a lever....no monitor, no thompson.

    Now all that said I do wish I could talk about the movie as there are likely some things in there that people in this thread would find interesting, but alas, I can't......perhaps that would be allowed over a PM or something, but there are quite a few other things that need to be talked about....shame we can't here.
     
  8. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    Good movie. Good guns.
     
  9. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    I suspect the FBI had most of the Colt Monitors ever made (I recall reading FBI bought 80 or so).

    The Internet Movie Firearms Database has a page on the guns used in The Highwaymen (Netflix, 2019) with listing of guns identified and screenshots (for those of us who don't netflick).

    http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Highwaymen,_The

    ( Xcape the annoying pop up ad - blogs have to pay their way.)

    IMFDb pages are edited by gun buffs, movie buffs, and in some cases by active studio armorers and prop men who work in the movies.

    So far they have ID'd these guns in "The Highwaymen".
    1 Revolvers
    1.1 Single Action Army
    1.2 Smith & Wesson M1917 Revolver
    2 Pistols
    2.1 M1911
    3 Submachine Guns
    3.1 Thompson M1921AC
    4 Shotguns
    4.1 Winchester Model 1912
    4.2 Browning Auto-5
    4.3 12 Gauge Double Barreled Shotgun
    4.4 Coach Shotgun
    5 Rifles/Carbines
    5.1 Browning Automatic Rifle (Cutdown)
    5.2 M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle
    5.3 Colt Monitor
    5.4 M1903 Springfield
    5.5 Remington Model 8 Autoloading Rifle
    5.6 Winchester Model 1894
    5.7 Winchester Model 1907
     
  10. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    Some solid info on the guns of Frank Hamer. Originally an article somewhere, now apparently only really available as below: reposted from forum to forum so... posting instead of linking:

    The Guns of Frank Hamer
    The nemesis of Bonnie and Clyde packed an M1911 but it was a .38 Super
    By Rick Cartledge

    After some discussion with fellow Thompson book writer Rick Mattix and the helpful Dee Cordry, we voted that the following might be of interest to the knowledgeable OklahombreS readers. Writers have churned out much on Frank Hamer's skill with guns, not enough about his ability as a detective, and almost nothing about his thorough knowledge of firearms. Most of this article springs from research for an article on Bonnie and Clyde which will appear in the July issue of Machine Gun News and will be subsequently included in the new Thompson book edited by Tracie Hill. Some of this drops from a fortunate experiment done by a friend of mine in 1939. Finally, a small part of this comes from having spent the last 23 years in the good company of State Troopers, those most adaptable of lawmen.

    Rangers Hamer and Gualt patrolled on horses before they got cars. History records numerous examples of Ranger adaptability with the most famous being called Patterson and Walker. When Lee Simmons and Ma Ferguson put Frank Hamer on the trail of Bonnie and Clyde, the Ranger not only changed his car but his guns. The legendary lawman always carried a rifle and a .44 Triple Lock Smith and a C engraved single action .45 Colt called "Old Lucky". Frank Hamer believed justifiably that he could hit any target and had proved on numerous occasions that he could kill any target that was shooting at him. Given that Hamer had supreme confidence in his ability to equal anyone in a gunfight, the formidable lawman would not have changed the guns he was comfortable with without a very good reason.

    Since he kept "Old Lucky" and changed the other two guns, I believe that he had a very good reason and that reason was penetration. I believe that the savvy Ranger knew that Clyde's thick bodied V8 Ford was, to all but high powered guns, an extremely fast and bullet-proof car. Hamer may have suspected body armor. Hamer chose guns comfortable to him that would pierce the body of the V8 Ford and the bulletproof vests sometimes worn by lawmen and outlaws of the day. The two guns Hamer bought were both semi-automatic. Given his mission and the level from which it was launched, Capt. Hamer could have had any weapon he wanted. He selected for his rifle a Remington Model 8 in .35 caliber. For his pistol Hamer chose what has often been described as a .45 Colt automatic. This writer has never believed that the Colt was a .45, but more about that later.

    Frank Hamer had owned an engraved Remington Model 8 in .30 caliber for years and knew well the excellent qualities of the weapon. He opted for a larger caliber to deliver more punch to the target. He ordered the standard .35 from Jake Petmeckey's store in Austin, Texas and was shipped serial number 10045. Hamer also contacted the Peace Officer Equipment Company in St. Joseph, Missouri for it's "police only" 20 round magazine for the Remington rifle. Some years ago Frank Hamer Jr., a distinguished lawman in his own right, gave a filmed interview in which he showed the nimble .35 that his father had bought especially to go after Bonnie and Clyde. As to the rifle's ability to tear holes in a V8 Ford, Frank Hamer had an unimpeachable source - Clyde Barrow. Though Clyde and Bonnie escaped the Sowers ambush by Dallas County authorities in November of 1933, Clyde ditched his shot up car near the Ft. Worth Pike and commandeered a less damaged car to make good their flight to freedom. The abandoned V8 spoke volumes to the able lawmen of Dallas County and to the Rangers. Ted Hinton had hit the car 17 out of 30 shots with his Thompson submachine gun and hadn't penetrated the car body. Veteran Deputy Bob Alcorn had chugged away with his hefty Browning Automatic Rifle and ripped some respectable holes all the way through the car. Hinton called his Congressman, got a BAR from the government and a back seat full of ammunition, and learned how to shoot the roaring automatic rifle.

    Two months later, Frank Hamer opted for the Remington .35 as his hole puncher and he picked an interesting pistol to go with his quick-pointing rifle. To front for "Old Lucky", Capt. Hamer stuffed a blue steel Colt commercial automatic in his belt and it is this gun that is most interesting to this writer. I had long suspected that this Colt was not a .45 but one of the then new .38 Supers and I had three reasons for believing this. First, gangsters (Dillinger, Nelson, etc.) as well as lawmen had caught on to bullet proof vests and their resistance to .45 caliber penetration. Second, gangster use of the .38 Super to telling effect was known and thugs had even hammered the .38 Super into the extremely deadly machine pistol configuration. Two of these 22 round magazine equipped death machines were confiscated in a raid on John Dillinger's apartment in St. Paul in April of 1933. These Supers belonged to Nelson and were assembled from kits made by the Monarch Gun Company of Hollywood, California by underworld gunsmith H. S. Lebman of Texas. Nelson killed Federal Agent Baum at Little Bohemia with a .38 Super machine pistol. The third reason springs from a fortunate experiment done by a friend of mine in 1939 on a dare. Joseph Pinkston in his excellent book, with Robert Cromie, "Dillinger, A Short and Violent Life" writes of the apprehension of Dillinger gang member Leslie Homer and of his advice given to Racine officers in November of 1933. Since Capt. Hamer was known to have followed the Dillinger case as a matter of professional curiosity, he may well have been familiar with Homer's published remarks which were "If you want to give your coppers an even break with present-day gangsters, you want to equip them with the new Super .38 caliber. A gun of that type will shoot a hole right through any bulletproof vest ever made."

    A friend of this author who sold Thompson submachine guns in the 1930's and 1940's proved Leslie Homer's assertion in 1939 although he had never heard of Leslie Homer or his assertion. After an afternoon of shooting with another associate and a local policeman, my friend and the other man were dared to shoot the policeman in his bulletproof vest. The other man, armed with a .38 pistol, shot the policeman and knocked him to the ground but did not otherwise injure him. My friend was equipped with a .38 Super, and, more sense than the other two. He told the policeman that be would shoot the vest if he put it on a post, which the policeman did. My friend said the .38 Super cut a hole in the vest as neatly as a drill press. Had the policeman been wearing the vest he would have been killed instantly.

    This story teaches two lessons. First, a contemporary gun using contemporary ammunition blew a hole in a gangster era bulletproof vest. Second, my friend was knowledgeable of guns in the 1930's. So was Frank Hamer. Several months ago, this author was discussing this story with friend Mike Thacker. Thacker said he had something tucked away in his files that might help. Two days later, Mike handed over a copy of Guns and Ammo's "Handguns for Sport and Defense" magazine. In this March 1992 issue, Jim Wilson tells of an interview with Frank Hamer Jr. in which Mr. Hamer confirms that his father's Colt was indeed a .38 Super. Mr. Hamer's comment that his father did not particularly like automatics seems to hammer home the thought that the Ranger picked the gun for a reason. Finally, at about 9:15 in the morning of May 23, 1934 while the rifle smoke still hung in the air, the gun Frank Hamer held in his hand as he approached the bullet riddled 1934 Ford V8 was the .38 Super. Should either of the murderous pair still have breath in their bodies and strive to fire one more defiant round, the legendary lawman was packing iron that would go right through the car body. Most printed lists of the death car's armament list a number of .45 automatics. Ted Hinton, in his book "Ambush", declares that two of the colt automatics were .38 Supers. On the subject of penetration it seems that Clyde may also have known. It's for d**n sure that Frank Hamer did.
    I had previously heard of the .38 Super pistol, maybe I read this very article back in the day as the modern-era armor "test" also feels familiar.

    Also, mentions briefly he had to order stuff, from multiple sources so just like today. Want the cool thing? Find a dealer, order it, wait. There are no magic gun shops as on the TV, but it was a fun scene.
     
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  11. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Yep.

    I think that's what I liked most about it.
     
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  12. RDCL

    RDCL Member

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    I kind of smiled during the scene with all the guns being carried out of the gun shop by the shop owner. No boxes. No packaging of any kind. Just a big bundle of long arms piled in the guys arms as if he were carrying firewood!
    Likely Hamer told him to leave the packaging behind and just pile them on the back seat like the tools they are, no concern about bumps/dings & scratches!!

    I know the Thompson would become a valuable collector piece in the future along with the .30-.30 lever gun. The rest I'm not sure.

    A great line would have been the younger shop guy asking: "Can we close early today now?":)

    Russ
     
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  13. rodregier

    rodregier Member

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    I read someone's comment elsewhere that the gun store scene was unrealistic simply because a store was unlikely to have that many different exotic expensive slow-moviing inventory items on hand. They also observed that the Colt Monitor was not available as a normal retail item but was a special-order product at that time.
     
  14. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    Schoobe, I read your article....and a few things stand out to me.

    So much is made of "thick body on the ford V8".....All the bodies back then are thick, made of real metal, it was not just the ford.

    Buddy has a Chevrolet....I want to say a 34, and that thing is made out of some metal jack.....thick heavy panels, the fenders weigh a ton.

    This is really a hard event to nail down, as so many did not talk about it.....and after they did more questions brought up....like his son with the 81.
     
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  15. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    He also had a mail order catalog (or at least a shooters bible type publication) he was choosing guns from the magazine that he had previously circled. It's not unreasonable to assume he had other guns circled in his catalog, and only asked for the ones he saw in stock. Also, judging by his house and living style especially compared to gault, but also every other house shown in the movie, (nice house, fridge, "new ford v8" 2 car household) it could be assumed that he had more money by far. Perhaps his wife was worth more, I do not know, but they had nicer things in the 30s than most did in the 70s locally so they weren't wanting for cash at least. You say that the gun was a 10k gun in today's money, but most of us here blew by 10k on our guns a looking time ago. And I assure you if I were tracking down the most murderous and notorious criminals I'd spend as much as I needed to think I could match their firepower, a good I've read that he was promised thousands in real life, but recieved little of what he was owed.

    On the gun front, the automatic (monitor) he was shooting at the sign sure seemed to have no recoil. Maybe the cutts compensatater was better at reducing recoil than I knew. Lol

    Another thing is the fact he bought far more than he used, such as the '03 he bought and I never saw again. So he didnt use ESP and know exactly what he would need. Also like many of us he bought a nice variety, a levergun, a DA revolver, a 1911, a shotgun, auto rifle, pistol caliber carbine, and a bolt action. Like many here say "better to have it and not need it....." I think he covered his bases with that lot.

    As far as what guns were really used, I've read so many different things that noone knows. Even of the men there at the time involved, their immediate reports differ so much that its unlikely anyone knows. Some even claim anachronisticly so we know that there is confusion.

    As far as the Ford "thick fenders" it means little. In one of the fields our cattle graze there is an old 30s car. There is more holes through it than that "death car". Everything from slugs to 22. Maybe the law enforcement perceived it to be a problem? I don't know. But I wouldn't want to be behind it myself
     
  16. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    Friend of mine's family, and we're not this old, grew up with a Checker Marathon (like the cabs, but they made plain old consumer cars also) as the family car. It lasted until he was about ready to drive, but by then was not really working. Among other things, parts of the body had rusted through. He poked at them, and swore the fenders were 1/4" thick steel. I believe it.
     
  17. mdrisc85

    mdrisc85 Member

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    I seem to recall from a book i read some time ago (The Johnson-Sims Feud from the U North TX Library) that around the time of the first world war Hamer had married into a wealthy family, as i understand it that between that and more lucrative work he took on post-retirement providing security and investigations for large TX companies he was more comfortable than many at that time.

    The book itself is fascinating about the period, this particular extremely violent family feud and Hamer's and others parts in it. One instance of a gunfight between several assasins, Hamer, his wife Glady and one of his brothers is very memorable.

    I enjoyed the film for many reasons, and this week took a morning ride out to Primm NV where they supposedly have the Bonnie and Clyde car on display now. Fun morning ride- wish more movies of this type were made.
     
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  18. shafter

    shafter Member

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    Frank spent so much money on guns and ammo that he didn't have any left over for a holster for his single action.
     
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  19. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    I noticed the lack of a holster. It's shocking how many in movies and shows have no holster. Lethal weapon? Rigs, never had one either. That said, how many IWB holders for a SAA were around in the 30s. Idk
     
  20. Legionnaire
    • Contributing Member

    Legionnaire Member

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    Haven't seen it yet, but thanks for the referral; I'll put it on my list.

    Thanks, too, for the reminder about the Ranger museum in Waco. I've been there, but wasn't able to spend as much time as I would have liked. I need to go back when I have some off time and the weather is not conducive for a range outing.
     
  21. CWL

    CWL Member

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    While I enjoyed the movie, it was just a movie. It was as factual as the earlier Bonnie & Clyde movie from which most learned the story.

    Bonnie was portrayed as a killer and executioner yet in reality, she likely didn't take part any gun fights of the Barrow gang (she was actually so injured from a car accident that she needed to be carried). Neither did she smoke cigars or tote a shotgun and certainly didn't execute that trooper with it, that was attributed to Henry Methvin iirc.
     
  22. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Digging around, I don't think you'd see a Colt Monitor Machine Rifle in your friendly neighborhood hardware store:
    "Around 125 were produced; 90 were purchased by the FBI. Eleven went to the US Treasury Department in 1934, while the rest went to various state prisons, banks, security companies and accredited police departments."
    Added: "In 1931 the new Colt Monitor was made available to civilians during the Depression at $300 each, including a spare parts kit, sling, cleaning accessories and six magazines, but Colt records indicate no domestic sales to individuals."
    -- source: James L. Ballou, "Rock in a Hard Place: The Browning Automatic Rifle", Ontario, California: Collector Grade Publications Inc. (2000), ISBN 978-0-88935-263-6.

    Colt Monitor did not catch on, either with the military or law enforcement. The Thompson was not a big seller either. Until production of the M1928A1 was restarted for WWII, most extant Thompsons were from the original 19,000 unit production run by Colt which were sold as M1921, M1921AC, M1928, with various modifications. On the eve of WWII Auto Ordnance had a few thousand of the original production still in stock. Back in the day when $200 would buy a Thompson, $400 would buy a new Ford car.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  23. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    "Neither did she smoke cigars or tote a shotgun ..."

    But she posed for gag photographs with a cigar and holding a shotgun on Clyde.

    (Which reminds me. To set the record straight, I do not wear a lampshade in real life.)
     
  24. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    But an original eye witness account said she did execute the trooper with a shotgun. Pretty much every account differs. In one instance ive seen two different accounts, both written by Barrow himself stating two different people started the shooting that day so who knows. And although I've read she limped I never read anything about being carried all the time, if she had they wouldn't have knew she limped. In the old photo of her pointing a shotgun at Clyde's stomach (one handed which shows strength for such a small female) she is in a pretty athletic stance too. I've seen her standing on one leg in a few pictures too so I think she could have hobbled up to someone to shoot. I also read where one of the gang stated they never actually saw her fire a gun so who knows. Not saying the movie is 100 percent because it's not. But that scene was actually in the original eye witness account. Many say they was debunked later but how and by whom? Idk
     
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  25. CWL

    CWL Member

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    That account was discredited as the actual shooter, Henry Methvin, testified as to what really happened that day in return for a reduced sentence and early parole.

    Don't confuse newspaper sensationalism with what really happened, they were the media stars of the moment. Most people's knowledge of her is from some captured photos of her hamming it up in front of the camera with cigar and shotgun. At 4' 11" Bonnie Parker wasn't athletic as much as she was rail thin due to growing up poor in the Depression. She didn't take active part in any robberies or shootouts and was likely sleeping in the back seat when Methvin open-up on those troopers. She was also crippled when Clyde rolled the car into a ditch @ 70mph. Bonnie was either badly burned or battery acid destroyed one leg from ankle to thigh (supposedly down to the bone). From that time on, she moved uneasily by hopping on her good leg or Clyde had to carry her.
     
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