history behind two handed shooting

[steelbird]

As someone who does historic tour work, this question came to mind:

Modern day handgun shooting technique involves the use of both hands - at least the proper training does. I was wondering when this came about, as nearly all depictions of 19th century and early 20th handgun combat, whether in warfare, law enforcement, or "gunfighter" shows the shooter holding the piece one-handed. Any firearm historians out there who know when holding the gun with both hands became the general technique, or has it always been both hands, dramatic interpretations being all wrong?
Thanks!

 

[Cosmoline]

One handed methods were the norm before Jack Weaver started grabbing his shooting hand in the 1950's. Prior to that the training doctrines emphasized using the off hand for balance and discouraged shooters from grabbing the handgun with both hands. I guess on the theory that it would mess up one's aim. But you will sometimes see a "teacup" grip or wrist-grab being used in old photos.

Use what works for you. Doctrine tends to become dogma, and suddenly we're all being screamed at to use the same kind of holsters and the stances that the champion shooters use. Life is not an IDPA match, and most of us are not championship shooters. More importantly, real life shooters use a wide variety of handguns some of which simply don't work as well with the techniques developed for standard 1911's or target revolvers. I use a very difference presentation and stance for a big single action magnum than a small double action, and a different one still for semis.

For example, if you can deliver accurate, fast fire using a one handed stance go for it. It minimizes the target area for an opponent, so there's some real tactical merit to the old dueling stance. The way things work in the shooting world, I suspect in a few years it will be the new tacti-cool stance. Jack Bauer will start doing it or something ;-)

 

[kda]

I'll be interested in what you learn in answer to your question especially in light of the experiences I've been having recently.

As part of my training, I've been practicing shooting with weak hand only (left hand for me) and strong hand only. What stunned me is how good my groups remain shooting with either my right or left hand only. For me at least, shooting two handed doesn't seem to promote better accuracy.

Conversely, it does help control recoil and get me back on target faster which is probably reason enough for me to use both hands when possible. And I presume it would be harder for a BG to take the weapon away from me if I held it with both hands ... not to mention that I might be able to hold it on target longer (without shaking too much) using both hands.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I think Jack Weaver (weaver stance) started it in the 50's, then Jeff Cooper incorporated it in his training doctrine.

 

[Gunfighter123]

While most/all military units were taught the "bullseye" shooting stance , handguns were mainly used by horse mounted troops --- with one hand needed to guide the horse dureing battle.

That said ---- I am SURE some people started useing two hands to aim/fire the handgun almost as soon as it was invented.

 

[Zundfolge]

Here's the man right here esplainin' hisself

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/webblastWVR.html

 

[rcmodel]

Modern two-hand combat shooting techniques were developed by Jeff Cooper & his crony's Jack Weaver, Eldon Carl, Ray Chapman and others.
They started the Southwest Combat Pistol League / California speed shooting circles in the late 1950's.

Jack weaver was one of the boys, and his Weaver Stance was one the two-hand methods that won matches and probably lead to the Isosceles Stance, and other methods in use today.

rc

 

[9MMare]

As part of my training, I've been practicing shooting with weak hand only (left hand for me) and strong hand only. What stunned me is how good my groups remain shooting with either my right or left hand only. For me at least, shooting two handed doesn't seem to promote better accuracy.

Conversely, it does help control recoil and get me back on target faster which is probably reason enough for me to use both hands when possible. And I presume it would be harder for a BG to take the weapon away from me if I held it with both hands ... not to mention that I might be able to hold it on target longer (without shaking too much) using both hands.

I'm noticing this as well *for defensive distances* of up to 30 feet. I'd be interested in strategies for the negatives you posted. My recoil recovery (fs 9mm) with my strong hand is pretty quick, hopefully that is a training issue for weak hand too. Also, a free hand could be used to repel an attacker? (Not something I am trained to do at this point)

 

[CWL]

nearly all depictions of 19th century and early 20th handgun combat, whether in warfare, law enforcement, or "gunfighter" shows the shooter holding the piece one-handed.

Hmm...didn't single-action pistoleros need 2 hands to fan the hammer? Those hoglegs were heavy, I'm sure somebody had to hold them 2-handed to shoot.

 

[Gunfighter123]

I'm noticing this as well *for defensive distances* of up to 30 feet. I'd be interested in strategies for the negatives you posted. My recoil recovery (fs 9mm) with my strong hand is pretty quick, hopefully that is a training issue for weak hand too. Also, a free hand could be used to repel an attacker? (Not something I am trained to do at this point)

You really NEED to use a electric "timer" to see just how much faster it is to recover from recoil --one hand vs. two. Unless you are talking "hip shooting" --- it is just as fast to draw and fire two handed as one handed.

 

[Ed Harris]

Then Cpt. Walter Walsh of the U.S. Marine Corps used a 2-handed hold to kill a Japanese sniper with a single shot to the torso fired with an M1911 pistol from a distance of 90 yards during the battle for Okinawa in 1945.

 

[Cosmoline]

Hmm...didn't single-action pistoleros need 2 hands to fan the hammer? Those hoglegs were heavy, I'm sure somebody had to hold them 2-handed to shoot.

The recoil rolls the hammer back to the thumb.

 

[rcmodel]

used a 2-handed hold to kill a Japanese sniper with a single shot

Very true.
Probably some Chinaman used a two-hand hold on his bronze hand-cannon in 1200 AD too.

But it didn't become an accepted practice in military, LEO, or civilian circles until after the Big Bear guys perfected it and proved it was the fastest way to make hits with a handgun.

Prior to the guys at Big Bear Lake, you were trained to stand on your two hind legs, hold & aim the gun with one hand, and stuff the other one in your pants pocket, or fold it neatly behind your back.

rc

 

[CWL]

The recoil rolls the hammer back to the thumb.

That isn't how you fan the hammer. It is done 2-handed.

 

[jeffmack]

Don't quote me on this, but it seems like I read somewhere that the old FBI, early 20th century stance, with the pistol in the right hand, left hand up and flat and sort of looking like "jazz-hands," etc., was developed from Jelly Bryce, who was a near super-natural one handed shooter.

Btw, is "chinaman" high road now?

 

[rcmodel]

Well, excuuuuse me!
I didn't realize it was a derogatory term.

My dictionary says Chinaman is a term that refers to a Chinese man, person, or in some cases, a racial term for any person of east Asian descent.

All I meant to convey was that someone in China invented gun-power in the 12th century, and was probably holding a bronze hand-cannon with both hands the first time he shot it.

I did not intend to insult the Chinese genius who invented gunpowder, or anyone else.

Had I meant it to be in the least derogatory, I know several other terms for a person of Chinese decent that really are Low Road!

rc

 

[9mmepiphany]

Btw, is "chinaman" high road now?

i hope not. the definition quoted is often followed by: "Although the term originated in usage that was not originally offensive in intent, and was listed in older dictionaries, its use evolved into a term often used against the Chinese and other Asians as they encountered increased discrimination and injustice in the late 19th and early 20th centuries"

but i allow some latitude during the holidays. back when i was younger...in the 50's and 60's...those were fighting words. even the teachers at school understood that we couldn't just allow that to slide

 

[jeffmack]

I apologize for coming across thin-skinned, rc. I sincerely appreciate your contributions to the forum.

Let's return to the thread, already in progress.

 

[9mmepiphany]

while there was usage of the two handed hold before Jack Weaver, he was the first to prove it in competition against shooters using the more traditional one handed hold.

Weaver was competiting against Cooper, Carl, Reid and other top shooters in the SouthWest Pistol League and his hold gave him the advantage to best them all using his S&W K-38.

Cooper had nothing to do with it's "invention", but he did incorporate it into his Modern Technique which became better known. most folks that you see shooting what they call the "Weaver" nowadays are actually shooting something closer to the "Chapman"

the Isosceles Stance has it's original popularity founded in PPC shooting (accuracy based competition) and was proven as "combat/tactical" applicable through IPSC/USPSA competition

 

[Cosmoline]

Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.

That isn't how you fan the hammer. It is done 2-handed.

True, but did people actually fan fire back in the old west, or is it a Hollywood invention?

 

[4sooth]

Fairbairn taught the two-handed use of the Colt .45 auto pistol prior to and during WWII. In the 2007 Special Forces Annual members of various Jedberg teams(early special ops) can be seen using a very modern looking two-handed hold during the use of the auto pistol. One of the members is holding his weapon at what today is called the 45 degree ready position--again using a two-handed hold.

This technique was certainly known prior to WWII and perhaps much earlier. Paul Gomez shared some info with me concerning this so he is a good source of info on this and other early techniques using two hands on the pistol.

Ed McGivern demonstrates two handed use of the Smith and Wesson revolver in his book "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" circa early 20th century. This was mainly for long range(out to 600 yds) shooting.

 

[steelbird]

Thanks to all who've responded. I work as a tour guide in the city of Saint Augustine, Florida, and I do tours for kids. At night I work as a ghost tour guide, and my costuming is that of a Civil War soldier - complete with a '58 Remmie. I wanted to able to answer that question about single-handed shooting if it should come up - or I may mention it next time when I'm doing a presentation. From what I can gather here, it would appear that while the two-handed grip was known before WW2, it was uncommon, and probably unheard of during the Civil War. But the point about "fanning" - is it a Hollywood invention - that is a good question.

 

[4sooth]

Beg borrow steal or buy a copy of "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern.

He discusses many shooting techniques to include one and two handed,fanning(not very accurate), instinctive(point), aerial, drawing from under clothing,two gun,hip and long range(out to 600 yds).

He shows a chief-of-police who he helped to learn to do a .80 sec. draw and fire with a six inch S&W revolver from a shoulder holster located under a buttoned up double-breasted overcoat!

About fanning-- it is usable to 8-10 feet with diligent training. Good hits an be had at longer distances but this requires extensive training. Better to use the sights! It is fun to try though.

 

[David E]

My recoil recovery (fs 9mm) with my strong hand is pretty quick,

How quick is "pretty quick?"

As was mentioned, you need a shot timer to determine shot-to-shot speed. Of course, you need to factor in the "accuracy" part of the equation, also.

I can pull the trigger just as fast one handed as I can with two, but there is no accuracy whatsoever firing one handed that way.

 

[David E]

Asian-American, please.

Why? What if the person in question has never been to America ?

I, for one, am sick and tired of any and all "hyphenated Americans." I refuse to submit to this form of liberal tyranny called "political correctness."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ewDbT3PYHE