HK91, M1A, or FN FAL?

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You don't seriously purport to compare distribution of the M14 with the FAL, do you??? The m14 has not seen a tithe of production or distribution of the FAL. (Just the facts, there, just the facts. And I really like the M1a).

Ash

Just correcting your false statements.;)
 
No, you are exaggerating your own position. But, as my list was initially limited, if we want to compare adoption by nations...

Metric pattern (actually started as the FAL-Canada)

1953
Canada (FAL Canada, subsequently modified to C1 & C1A1)

1954
USA (test only: X and T-48 models)
UK (subsequently the L1A1)
Belgium
Venezuela (Caliber 7mm Liviano)

1955
Argentina
Libya (cyrenaica)

1956
Luxembourg
Germany (G-1)
Belgian Congo
Syria
Lebanon
Paraguay
Qatar

1957
Kuwait

1958
Peru
Austria (StG-58)
Indonesia

1959
Cuba
Mozambique
Santo Domingo

1960
South Africa (R1)
Chile
Saudi Arabia
Muscat & Oman
cambodia
Ecuador

1961
Holland
Portugal
Ireland (Eire)
Rhodesia
Thailand

1962
India (1A, later their own design)
Liberia

1963
Morocco
Burundi
Ruwanda
St. Lucia

1964
Brazil (IMBEL M-964)
Niger

1965
Greece
Abu Dhabi

1966
Tanzania
Madagascar
Kenya

1967
Nigeria
tunisia

1968
Mexico
cameroon
St. vincent
Sultanate de Raas
Sierra Leone
Bahrein

1969
Dubai
St. Kitts
Panama
Honduras

1971
Lesotho

1974
Malawi

1975
upper Volta
Sharjah
Umm al Qiwain

1977
Pakistan

1978
Botswana
Bolivia


1980
Haiti
Mauritania

Inch pattern- as derived from FN submittals or prototypes

Canada- C1, C2 & C1A1D (and A1 variants)
UK- L1A1
Australia: say OzTrayLeah!!!

and

Australian contracts (isn't capitalism wonderful!)

L2A1-
Australian Army
Australian Navy
Australian Air Force
Barbados
Brunei
Ghana
India
Jamaica
Malaya
Mauritius
New Zealand Army
New Zealand Navy
Singapore
Tanganyika
Trinidad
Uganda
Zambia

L1A1 SLR-
Australian Army
New Zealand
RAAF (Royal Australian Air Force)
Australian Navy
Ghana
ADE Melbourne
Canada (1 only)
UK (1)
Ceylon
Australian Department of Territories
Singapore
Tanganyika
St. Kilda Police
Trinidad
Uganda
Hong Kong
Sarawak
Singapore Police
Rhodesia (1)
Kenya
Bermuda
Rhodesia (contract)
Sabah
Kuala Lampur
Brunei
South Australian Police
Zambia
Barbados
Department of Territories Christmas Islands
Bahrain
British Guyana
ADE Maribyrnong
Cannon Hill Qld
COD BATU
British Honduras
Guyana
Mauritius
West Malaysia
Botswana
Canberra (city)
National Parks & Wildlife (F1 FH)
Papua & New Guinea
Darwin Northern Territories
Gambia
Nigeria
Sharjah
Colombo
MOD London
RSAF Enfield
Belize
United Arab Emirates
Seychelles
State Police Australia
Fiji
Solomon Islands
Sri Lanka
St. Vincents, West Indies
Nassau, Bahamas
Leeward Islands, WI
SARCO, UK (5)
Tasmanian police
Korea PMC
Italy

Now, what was your list?

Ash
 
If for some reason you really depended your life on it, and it started jamming mid-combat, just close the gas port more to get it to cycle harder.
Isn't that backwards?

No it's right. The gas port vents gas to the atmosphere and lets it escape from the gas system. By closing up and covering more of the gas port hole, you are keeping more of the gas in the system to cycle the bolt.
 
Ash, why do you insult me?

I've said everything that I've needed to say, and that's that.
 
I thought the trials involving the M-14 and FAL found that they were largely equivalent in both accuracy and reliability. The reason the M-14 was chosen was because it supposedly could use the M-1 tooling.
 
That makes no sense. By the numbers, the FAL is far superior. Even in the US, the FAL was coming out front. One of the arguments in favor of the M14 was ease of manufacture since it was so similar to the m1. Except this was not the case.

But by the numbers, the FAL was considerably more desirable than the M14. Vastly more FAL's were produced than M14's and were issued to far more nations than the M14, whether by direct number, or in armies who chose it for their main military arm. In the latter role, the FAL squashes the M14 in adoption. It proved very successful in very bad places, where maintenance was not regular. Sub-saharan Africa, India, Southeast Asia, South America, Central America, all of these places saw the FAL in action in far-flung places where support was non-existent. They just kept on soldiering on - very much like the AK.

Again, I want to emphasize that I like the M14 type rifle (even paid a bunch of cash for one). But in the end, design-wise, it cannot be said that the m14 was a more reliable rifle. The evidence is simply contrary to that.

(Also again, this is not intended to insult as no malice is intended)

Ash
 
But by the numbers, the FAL was considerably more desirable than the M14. Vastly more FAL's were produced than M14's and were issued to far more nations than the M14, whether by direct number, or in armies who chose it for their main military arm.

Using that logic... the AK is superior to the FAL.
 
As an assault rifle the AK is far better than the FAL. Not nearly as accurate, but actually capable of select fire. The FAL is not suitable for the select fire role. In that vein, the AR-based rifles are also better. The FAL is heavier, carries less ammo, and cannot be controlled with accuracy in select fire (notice the FAL was never built with a 3-round burst (at least, not that I am aware of)). It is the ultimate Main Battle Rifle, and is also a successful DMR. It is a better main battle rifle than the M14.

It is not a better assault rifle than the AK or AR. In the assault rifle role, it is clear that it is not as good as either. But as the numbers go, most of the nations which adopted the FAL have replaced it either with the AK or AR (or derivatives of either).

Ash
 
Applying your more is better logic the AK must be superior to the FAL in every way. More have been produced and issued.
 
Yep. Strength in numbers is why you champion the FAL, but the total number of FALs is insignificant when compared to the total number of AKs.
 
Also keep in mind one reason there have been so many FALs produced was simply the availability of the licensing of the designs, both metric and inch.

Durning the boom days FN was selling manufacturing rights to just about anybody that wanted them which certainly made it easier for them to be produced in quantity.

The AK saw the same thing, licensed and unlicensed manufacturers cranking them out my the truckload.

The M14 was just too hard to produce easily.
 
:) Also keep in mind that the modernized M14 our troops are using today in growing
numbers are much more accurate and reliable that the M14 of just a few years ago.
Neither the FAL or HK can hold a candle to the modernized M14.
This same M14 modernization program is available to civilians :cool:
 
Manual of Arms...

With respect to the post WW2 rifle trials, I believe the US military also weighed the Manual of Arms heavily in their selection criteria. FAL = left side cocking handle, pistol grip, bolt catch down low, rubber butt plate, etc.

There's nothing quite like the sound of a large section of soldiers simultaneously slamming the steel butt-plates of their heavy battle rifles to the tarmac... "ORDER ARMS"... BANG!:D The present day military honor guards still use M14's for good reason... nostalgic and very impressive in action. Besides, you just can't twirl an FAL. :neener:

I would imagine the Manual of Arms for a G3 is even weirder since the bolt hold open is a notch in the cocking tube and on the left, pistol grip, etc.

Personally, I think they’re all great rifles. Any of them would serve you well. If I had to choose between the three, I’d go with the M1A because I’m heavily biased in favor of US military nostalgia and because it has a steel butt plate! :D
 
But apples, man, apples. The modernized M14 compared to an unmodernized rifle in its design of 50 years earlier. Come on. Use your head.

As to numbers to numbers, the argument is absurd. The FAL was adopted by vastly more nations than the M14 even after Taiwan received the equipment to produce the m14. Taiwan was unable to flood the market with m14's even though they made them available. When two rifles of the same type, main battle rifles, are compared, numbers, when they are so utterly lop-sided, do provide support to the argement that the FAL was the better combat rifle.

Bandied numbers comparing an assault rifle to the FAL go only so far. As assault rifles, the AK was VASTLY better than the FAL. The FAL, like the M14, are miserable assault rifles. When you have the SKS, FAL, M14, BM-59, FN-49, or AK available, which one, do you suppose, would be considered the best assault rifle? And the numbers will that out.

The AR is a better overall rifle than the AK. In that way, numbers begin to fail as supporting arguments. The AK is better in unsupported areas, the AR is superior for the professional soldier. So, among the nations with professional soldiers which one is issued more, the AK or the AR? The AR, of course. Thus, total production or adoption cannot be used.

But, compare the "professional army" model with production/adoption numbers above. IN the vast majority of industrialized western nations, the FAL was the rifle of choice. Now that is a simple, undeniable fact. Compare that to the M14's adoption and, well, there is no comparison. Take a look at the abused Indian, Rhodesian, or Turkish FAL's and you realize just how much abuse and lack of care the FAL can endure without failure. And that is not just anecdotal evidence. The FAL proved durable in some of the worst #%!! holes in existence. The m14 was not distributed anywhere near as broadly. That is just a fact, neither good nor bad nor biased, just a fact. It matters not at all what we personally think or believe.

Compare the kissing cousin of the M14, the BM-59. It was a failure in Indonesia. Now, that is not a direct relation, of course. The BM-59 is NOT an M14. But given the relatively weak distribution of the m14, we are limited in the amount of anecdotal evidence out there.

I like the M14. I think it makes an excellent rifle and is certainly more accurate than the FAL (but not vastly more accurate in standard configuration). But accuracy does not the better rifle make. The P08 Parabellum was certainly more accurate in WWI than the 1911. Which, however, was the better pistol?

Ash

Ash
 
I live in the now and live for tomorrow and beyond.
The modernized M14 is what it is and it ain't the M14 of old.

The modernized M14 is made for the professional soldier.
 
I happen to agree with you. And, given the nature of the argument, the M14 in a modernized guise may be better than the FAL. I personally think an FAL can be equally modernized - but comparing a modernized M14 to an unmodernized FAL is not an equal comparison.

In any case, the modernized M14 is undoubtably a fine rifle. It is not, however, the rifle adopted and then quickly replaced by the US military.

Ash
 
Ugh, this is devolving into an arfcom-like arguement.

In the end, the FAL, M1A and G3 are all fine MBRs. The AR10 has finally come on the scene in large enough numbers for people to wrap their heads around them.

I personally think it comes down to personal preference...where one platform wins, the other loses. If I had to personally chose, it would be FAL, M1A, AR10, G3 in that order (fortunately, I haven't had to choose...I own them all). My ratings are based on THOROUGHLY MODERNIZED (e.g., assume all the collapsible/folding stocks, rail systems, gee-gaws all over the dang thing) versions of the products.

Ranking in order (YMMV):

Ergonomics - AR10, FAL, M1A, G3
Accuracy potential - AR10, M1A, FAL/G3 (tie)
Sights - AR10/M1A (tie), FAL (with stock sights, ties for 1st with new Hampton lower/A2 sights), G3
Fieldstrip/maintenance/cleaning capability - AR10/FAL (tie), M1A, G3
Reliability - FAL/G3/M1A (3-way tie), AR10
Availability of mags/spare parts - FAL, M1A, G3, AR10
Test of time/use - FAL/M1A(tie), G3, AR10

In other words, there is no clear winner on these criteria. For me, the FAL is the most ergonomic, handy, easiest to maintain rifle of the 4. With the Hampton lowers and much better triggers from DSA, there is no longer a gap with the M1A/AR10. The FAL will never be known as a match rifle but mine all shoot 1-1/2 to 2 MOA.

FAL for me. And I'll happily reach deeper in the safe for any of the others.
 
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