Hmong/Deer hunter shootings

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Now your just making things up. The idea of a warning shot or threats are what people here are injecting into the case, there is no evidence of such.
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Then again, the two witnesses haven't always agreed on who even fired the shot from their side. Are we sure we know when, or who, better than two guys who were there?

If you think its all right to shoot people because someone's feelings are hurt, I'm done talking with you.
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My point is, if you have the opportunity to let go of a confrontation where the other guy apologizes and tries to leave, and you and your friends get in his way and keep pushing it, you better realize you might be making a mistake. Right or wrong, the way this thing actually played out is one easily forseeable outcome.
 
Please look up last year's discussions, people.

An experienced hunter walked through POSTED LAND, and climbed a tree so he could sit in somebody's deer stand.
Anybody who could believe he was "lost, confused, and trying to find his way" needs a guardian!

I have no doubt he was foul-mouthed, insulted, and "disrespected". Yet he was given AND TOOK a clear path to leave. He marched 30-50 yards.
He then stopped and took the time to remove the scope from his rifle so he could use the more battle-friendly iron sights to attack the group.
Was this the act of somebody who had been shot at -- somebody who was in fear of his life? Nonsense!!!

He shoot most of them in the back as they ran away.
He returned to one and said, "What, you aren't dead yet?" and pumped some more into him.
He Reloaded.
In his own interviews afterwards, he admitted he left when he was out of bullets.

Northern Wisconsin does not have border-crossing criminals, rapists, drug-growers, Meth-factories, and other criminals running around their woods as we civilized folks do in Texas, California, Oregon and other places where chest-thumpers can brag they never face an armed stranger without backup and guns drawn. Northern Wisconsin builds cabins in the woods and put kiddy gym sets behind them so families can enjoy the weekends.
So all those STUPID PEOPLE had to be taught a lesson, didn't they?

You might be sensing that I am less than pleased with some of my brothers on this forum. I certainly hope so.

Fud.
 
Northern Wisconsin does not have border-crossing criminals, rapists, drug-growers, Meth-factories, and other criminals running around their woods as we civilized folks do in Texas
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I wouldn't get ahead of myself about the meth factories. Wisconsin, like most of rural America, is plagued by them. Meth was originally developed in Michigan's Upper Pennisula, which is sort of like Northwest Wisconsin.
 
And you definitely would not be legal right to prevent him from leaving.
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Depends. I don't know what the trespassing laws are in Wisconsin, but if he committed a crime you may be justified in detaining him (citizen's arrest). I am not suggesting that this is a good idea or that I would do this.

I hunt on my father-in-law's property and he has had to deal with a variety of tresspassers over the years. There have been poachers, vandals and thieves. I hate to sound like a curmudgeon, but I am more likely to view a trespasser as someone up to no good, rather than as someone that is just lost, especially when you consider that most large tracts of private property in this state are posted.

Personally in cases of a person of a different race/sex being taunted, harrassed or intentionally made fearful by folks of another race, I really have no problem with shooting them.
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There is no excuse for taunting anyone (even if they are from the same or different race), but I can honestly say that I don't want people to be able to use the excuse "I was offended" or "my feelings were hurt," in the case of a murder.

I wouldn't get ahead of myself about the meth factories. Wisconsin, like most of rural America, is plagued by them. Meth was originally developed in Michigan's Upper Pennisula, which is sort of like Northwest Wisconsin.
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I think you are thinking of methcathinone ("cat"), which caught on in the UP back in the early '90's. IIRC, the "meth" that most people talk about is methamphetamine, which I think have been around for quite a while.
 
Another AP story

Hunter Testifies About Fatal Shootings

By ROBERT IMRIE
The Associated Press
Tuesday, September 13, 2005; 6:45 PM

HAYWARD, Wis. -- A deer hunter wounded in a shooting rampage that killed six others testified Tuesday he fired a shot at the man accused in the killings only after he already was hit in the arm and the man was trying to shoot him again.

Lauren Hesebeck said he was helping some of his fallen companions when Chai Soua Vang walked toward him, near where some all-terrain vehicles were parked in the woods.



Lauren Hesebeck holds up a rifle as he testifies in the murder trial of Chai Soua Vang Tuesday, Sept. 13, 2005, in Hayward, Wis. Vang is charged with six counts of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted murder in the Nov. 21, 2004 shootings in some isolated Sawyer County, Wis., woods. Hesebeck was shot in the arm during the incident. (AP Photo/Jeffrey Phelps, Pool) (Jeffrey Phelps - AP)
Hesebeck said Vang hollered something to the effect of, "You're still alive?"

Hesebeck said a shot missed him as he scrambled around an ATV, and he then grabbed a rifle and fired one shot in Vang's direction.

Hesebeck, one of two hunters wounded in the shootings Nov. 21, told his version of the shootings in the third day of Vang's murder trial in Sawyer County.

Vang, a 36-year-old Hmong immigrant and truck driver from St. Paul, Minn., is charged with six counts of first-degree murder and three counts of attempted murder. He faces mandatory life in prison if convicted. Wisconsin does not have the death penalty.

Judge Norman Yackel told jurors they likely would get the case Friday.

The shootings happened after the hunters got into a confrontation with Vang, whom they accused of trespassing on private land.

Vang's lawyer said he was frightened when the hunters yelled profanities and racial slurs, and acted in self-defense after someone shot at him first. Prosecutors disputed that and said only one shot was fired at Vang, fired by Hesebeck after the shooting began.

Reading from a statement he gave investigators the day after the shootings, Hesebeck testified Tuesday that an owner of the property, Robert Crotteau, had confronted Hmong hunters on his land three or four times in 2003.

"Crotteau referred to them as mud ducks, that he was sick of them coming on his property," Hesebeck said. Hesebeck said Tuesday a "mud duck" was a reference to someone from Minnesota, but in a statement to investigators, Hesebeck said a "mud duck" was a Hmong person.

Crotteau, 42, and his 20-year-old son, Joey, were among those killed last November.

The other hunter who was wounded, Terry Willers, testified Monday that he never heard Crotteau use excessive profanities or any racial slurs, though he said he did not hear everything.

Hesebeck testified in the confrontation, Vang tried to walk away once, and Joey Crotteau blocked him because his father said he wasn't finished talking to Vang yet. Hesebeck said Robert Crotteau told Vang, "You keep it up, I'm going to kick your a--."

Hesebeck testified Tuesday that Willers never pointed his gun at Vang or fired a shot. But according to statements the defense entered into court, Hesebeck told his wife hours after the shooting and later told investigators that he believed Willers had fired a shot.

Willers himself testified Monday that he never fired a shot.
 
I think you are thinking of methcathinone ("cat"), which caught on in the UP back in the early '90's. IIRC, the "meth" that most people talk about is methamphetamine, which I think have been around for quite a while.
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I'll take your word for it. You are right that methamphetamine has been around longer than that--I remember hearing about it in the mid-1980s. About all I really know about meth (of any kind) is that it is destroying the small rural community in which I grew up, and that rural Minnesota and North Dakota (and most likely Wisconsin) is lousy with meth labs.

Regarding the testimony today, if the Wisconsin boys really did fire the first shot, I wonder if Vang could get off with manslaughter?
 
Sure El Tejon.

Hunting down and shooting unarmed people in the back is exactly what most of us consider Self Defense. :rolleyes:

You know better than that.

I.G.B.
 
I doubt he'll walk. I would be surprised if he got off with manslaughter, but you never know what will happen in a jury trial. It seems to me that the defense is setting the stage for a manslaughter conviction versus a first-degree murder conviction. Ten years versus life.

Clearly these hunters handled the situation poorly, but I can't imagine a jury would consider it poorly enough to warrant mass murder. It does provide an example of how not to behave in a confrontational situation. If an armed society is a polite society, one should perhaps make an effort to be polite when dealing with someone who is obviously armed.
 
He'll probably get off on one or two of the killings as self defense. But not the other 4.

He's spending time in the slammer for sure.

Things that will work against him.

Only one of the other guys was armed.
He chased people down and shot them in the back (big no no)
He had time to take the scope off of his rifle (shows presence of mind and not "I was afraid for my life")
 
Okay,

I no longer care. I expect the dude will get out of the murder one charges. Perhaps even scott free. As for shooting in the back? It's almost universal if you believe you are in fear of your life, well...I expect that will be an excuse used in court too.

I think he's guilty, but not beyond a reasonable doubt. This is why I believe he will walk. And even if he is a total snake the property owner and co. confronted him a second time, that was just plain stupid. Seems like the gene pool got cleaned out a little bit.

Don't care about the facts either. They will float to the surface in due time.
Perhaps just to get skimmed off the top to turn this into a crusade for various political parties.

This truly is a lose-lose situation.

The lesson to be learned by property owners? Protection of property through superior firepower. Hard lesson for Wisconsin.
 
Hesebeck testified in the confrontation, Vang tried to walk away once, and Joey Crotteau blocked him because his father said he wasn't finished talking to Vang yet.
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Ironic that this decision led to him running through the woods screaming "Help me! Help me!" just a few minutes later.
 
nasty, brutish, and short

If Vang walks, it will be the Hmong community in Wisconsin that will be the loser. If we're going to degenerate to tribal enclaves who put "their own kind" first, life in America is going to get very, very Hobbesian. I'm sure a lot of people are watching this case very closely.
 
Let's look at Vang's own testimony before we pass judgement:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/467/5616664.html

Here's a few nuggets from the killer himself:

Robert Crotteau deserved to die "because he's the one who confronted me and called me names and that's just who he is," Vang testified, as members of Crotteau's family appeared tearful and stunned.
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Vang testified that he shot them both because Laski stopped the ATV near Vang and was holding a rifle, looking Vang's way. But he also acknowledged fatally shooting Jessica Willers.

"She didn't have a gun?" Lautenschlager asked.

"No," Vang replied.

"Is there a reason you shot her?"

"My sense is I just open fire before they shoot me," Vang replied.
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My thoughts on this man are not acceptable on THR.
 
It would seem that all concerned did the wrong thing in some way. When you are surrounded by armed, angry people of another race and someone starts using racial slurs, threatening violence and blocking your escape you might feel that you are about to be killed. This incident could well have ended with a quiet burial in North Wisconsin. They might have killed him.
Arguably, Vang was more wrong than the others but he is at least alive instead of rotting in a shallow Wisconsin grave. All in all, I would say that blocking his exit was a bad idea.
BTW -- The Hmong are less likely than other Asians to react to racial slurs in a docile manner. In fact Asians in general are less likely to react in a docile manner these days. The Hmong religion (Animism) and culture are more similar to American Indians than to other Asian cultures. They have no written language. They are often victimized by other Asian cultures and are well known for their courage.
 
Fud - "he admitted he left when he was out of bullets"

I don't recall that. What I remember was that he ditched a loaded magazine into the swamp after the shootings. I remember thinking at the time that must have been done because he didn't want any evidence to show he was resisting when caught.


He is on trial for killing people. He confessed to that. Who in the jury is going say he didn't do it? That's how it works. Game over. Justification? Save it for the appeal.
 
OK, his own testimony about chasing them down and killing them isn't going to help him. But I want to talk about the "shooting them in the back" thing.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned another possibility (assuming he hadn't basically confessed to murder): They all rushed him, and they began to turn only as he fired on them. If you watch untrained people about to be hit or injured, they will shrink up and cover their torsos, and begin to turn away. It seems to be an instinctive response, one you have to train yourself NOT to do. If not for his admission of the events, his defense would have a pretty good chance of getting him off with that.
 
If not for his admission of the events, his defense would have a pretty good chance of getting him off with that.
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Not really. From reading about the case, it was pretty apparant that the evidence on the ground (footprints, brass, etc....) was quite obvious and matched the stories of the hunters that were shot and lived.
 
For those who are still making assumptions on or are thinking of alternate scenarios, please go read the official police report that was in my last post. It jives with all of the testimony given so far, even Vang's. He was not blocked in when the shooting began, in fact he had walked 50 to 100 feet before he turned around and open fired, after he took the time to remove the scope from his rifle. The prosecuter's and victims' testimony also point to the fact that the only shot fired from Willer's gun was fired by Hesebeck after willers was wounded- thus 4 shells being left in a gun that could hold 5.

Vang's testimony yesterday didn't help him much. He's toast.

Of course the jury was handpicked from Dane county- the also known as San Francisco East, so anything can happen :rolleyes:
 
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