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Holocaust Day in History Class

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by mordechaianiliewicz, Oct 12, 2010.

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  1. mordechaianiliewicz

    mordechaianiliewicz Member

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    Okay, so today in a History class at school we began talk on the Holocaust part of WWII. My teacher by the way, considers this her field of study. So, I make an observation that it probably wouldn't have happened if the Jews, Gypsies, pretty much everyone in Eastern Europe had been armed, and known how to use their weapons.

    I also suggested that was probably the biggest lesson to take from the Holocaust, and that Democratic institutions, and international treaties don't really stop any dictator bent on genocide. Only force of arms do that.

    The teacher was quite upset, and had a literal argument with me. However, after class, several classmates asked me questions. Two simple things she couldn't counter was why the Swiss never were invaded, and that only the Allies winning in Europe stopped the Holocaust ultimately.

    It all began because of my presentation, which was The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. She grudgingly gave me a B.

    After class, several folks asked me questions. I feel good. Number one, no one ever seemed to be that interested in history in this class till now. Number two, the connection is there in their minds.
     
  2. dovedescending

    dovedescending Member

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    Way to go! You may never convince her, but it's an excellent sign that fellow students came and asked questions :) Make sure to direct them to a website called www.thehighroad.org if they want to know more...
     
  3. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    I think the Swiss being heavily armed was less a factor than the fact that they were protected by The Alps, and there was nothing in Switzerland worth attacking except for the banks, and they were already being used by the Nazi leaders to hide stolen wealth until after the war. Attacking might ruin their "little arrangement"

    (Good job, btw ;))
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2010
  4. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I would say (amongst ourselves, here on THR) that it isn't quite so simple as that. Just like we say in the S&T forum, "mindset, skillset, toolset -- in that order." The population first has to have the desire -- better said, the mental preparedness -- to act with righteous violence to stop oppression and genocide. There is much in the political and social history of Europe (and a great many other places) that makes (or made at the time) effective resistance neigh unthinkable.

    But general disarmament is a symptom of those factors, and is itself a contributing factor, too, so you are quite right to say what you said.

    When people own arms, they (may) practice with arms, and through that practice they are not only developing/maintaining physical skill with weapons, but as well stoking the "spiritual" fire that reminds us that we are, somewhere deep inside maybe, able and responsible to act with necessary violence to defend our freedom and lives.

    So, the freedom to keep and bear arms (toolset), prompts the practice of the skillset, which in turn helps strengthen the mindset.

    Disarm a population and (given time) you can starve out both the skills to use the weapons, but also all but the dimmest embers of the WILL to do so.

    It is as you said. But the larger meaning of what you said runs deeper than you were able to express in your classroom. IMHO.

    Good job! And don't stop arguing. You have the potential to reach a lot of folks.
     
  5. essayons21

    essayons21 Member

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    It is no coincidence that one of the most zealous, no-compromise pro-2A organization is the Jews for the Protection of Firearms Ownership.

    Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.
     
  6. otcconan

    otcconan Member

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    I have a B.A. in History with a concentration on Eastern Europe and Russia.

    I do know that most of the Jews in Germany were stripped of the right to firearms long before the true aims of the Holocaust became clear. Not too clear on the Poles, but the Soviets took guns away from just about everybody early on, so their Jewish population would be in heaps of trouble.

    Interestingly, the Jews of Yugoslavia were quite well armed, and fought with Tito and his partisans against the Germans. Also, there was a group of Jews in Russia, the Bielski group, who actively fought alongside and with the Russian partisans, against the Nazis.

    But I have to say, that the Jews as a people learned from history. They haven't been beaten since. They've fought 6 wars against their Arab enemies and won every time.
     
  7. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    Thanks to the USA!
     
  8. otcconan

    otcconan Member

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    Yes, we do give them some moral (and materiel) support. :)
     
  9. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    do your homework...

    The US did not support Israel with arms or money in the '48/49 war.

    And France was their primary supplier in '56... with the Anglo/Franco invasion and siezing of the Suez Canal bolstering Israels southern frontier.

    Ike wouldn't risk war with the Soviets over Israel.
     
  10. Mauserguy

    Mauserguy Member

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    Well, though I certainly agree that individuals should have a right to defend themselves, I don't believe that WWII is a good example of what could happen. In the case of the Warsaw uprising, the ghetto was ultimately reduced with all lost.

    Additionally, professional armies could not stop the fascists until Stalingrad and El Alamein. In the case of partisan fighters, they were certainly brave, but often partisan attacks were followed by massive reprisals against civilians. Basically, individuals and small groups could only fight if they were willing to have their entire families wiped out. WWII was a bad deal all around.
    Mauserguy
     
  11. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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  12. BLACKHAWKNJ

    BLACKHAWKNJ Member

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    I recall a scene in the movie Fail Safe where the Walter Matthau character says "How far do you think Hitler would have gotten if every Jew he went after had a gun in his hand?!"
     
  13. Hillbillyz

    Hillbillyz Member

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    Unfortunately many teachers have a view point that is far left. Know your facts, politely state your facts, and the open thinking minds will listen. As stated above way to go son.
     
  14. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    Debating the nuances of WWII history (absent any RKBA vector) is simply not an appropriate topic for THR; I've deleted quite a few posts here that strayed from that notion.

    Let's keep the dialog focused on the RKBA.
     
  15. mordechaianiliewicz

    mordechaianiliewicz Member

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    The presentation was 10 minutes. And while that is alot longer than it sounds, it wasn't long enough to really get into it. Plus, the RKBA was tangential to simply stating the uprising following liquidation. The leaders (including my namesake here), and the locations and events.

    In all actuality the Russians had as much to do with ending the Holocaust as the Allies (though not out of any particular moral indignation).

    Also, very much true (as stated earlier, mindset, skillset, toolset).... you can't just hand a person a gun and tell them to "handle it"... but, it is a first step. Really, you have to be able to have a "gun culture."

    The Jews of Europe had a culture of art and science, finance and politics. Music and rich traditions of thought and study, both secularly and religiously. None of that meant one wit when the SS started knocking on doors.

    I did later discuss that very thing with a few students. They needed the same clarifications. But, the assignment didn't leave me the ability to stump for Appleseed (though I really wish I coulda)
     
  16. daorhgih

    daorhgih member

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    What won wwii?

    (How can I make that read "WWII") The M-1 and the men behind it, and the weather and The Man behind it (Gen George Smith Patton.) Stalingrad was abandoned to the "advancing" Wermacht, as a burning wasteland, and German troops starved through that winter. Moskva was destroyed too, and not by force of arms, long-guns or pistols. Cities are strategic; a pistol is specific. Do all you can to preserve your right to it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  17. Vyacheslav

    Vyacheslav member

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    well, a lot of people in eastern europe was armed, thats why they made it to berlin first, lol
     
  18. robert garner

    robert garner Member

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    Mordachai, well done,good luck!
    robert
     
  19. svtruth

    svtruth Member

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    Well Done!

    IIRC, the Warsaw Ghetto had a few weapons and occupied a significant number of German troops for months.
     
  20. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

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    Lesson #2: The Japanese didn't invade the USA because EVERYONE was armed.
     
  21. Buck Snort

    Buck Snort Member

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    WELL!! There's also the logistical problem of moving an invasion force all the way across the Pacific oceon and getting it there in one piece!
     
  22. stchman

    stchman Member

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    Your teacher got upset at you because in all her training it probably never dawned on her before.

    Yes, if the Jewish populace would have been armed they would have been a far more difficult target for Hitler to try to exterminate.

    Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers saw this and created the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution.

    In many countries that have very strict gun laws are at the mercy of their governments to take care of them. Sheep we call them.
     
  23. Col. Plink

    Col. Plink Member

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    I'm not sure there's anything more inspiring in human history than the Warsaw Uprising.

    Good for you!
     
  24. GEM

    GEM Member

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    Using historical examples to defend the RKBA is dangerous as the typical cliches are not well documented.

    1. The Japanese - the Japanese had no plans to invade the US. They thought that we would negotiage a sphere of influence to them after Pearl Harbor and the taking of the Phillipines. As mention they did not have the capacity to invade us. Nor did they ever intend to. Deterrring them with our citizen's arms never entered the picture. The quote that floats around isn't part of the real historical records of their war plans.

    2. The Swiss - they cooperated for a large part with the Reich. They supplied materials, financial services and railroad, transportation support to the German Forces. The Swiss did have a plan for a redoubt where they would withdraw if invaded. Most importantly, they heavily mined the tunnels that the Germans used for transport. That was their greatest military threat.

    With their cooperation and threat to damage infrastructure - the Germans never seriously had the need to invade. Yes, there would be resistance but the German could have overcome it, if need be. There were a fair number of Nazi sympathizers in Switzerland and in their armed forces who would have been Quislings. They were removed by the head of the Swiss forces but they would have been there.

    Recall Sweden - never invaded for the same reason. They gave Germany transportation rights and materials. They didn't have the same militia system. No one brings them up. But it indicates that cooperation was the crucial issue. Was it moral - both countries were in a hard place.

    Thus, if you support the RKBA with those examples against a person who knows history - you would be in trouble with the cliched examples. If a teacher didn't, that's their incompetency.

    On the other hand, research on genocides clearly indicates that the target population has little means to defend itself. Although, you have to be careful of using the fake Hitler quotes.
     
  25. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    IMO, it wouldn't have mattered if the Jews did have guns. Do you really think that would have altered the outcome in Germany?
     
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