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Home defense carbine: 9mm v. 223

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Balrog, Jul 29, 2013.

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  1. Warp

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  2. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    “ A shallow shoulder injury…” Do you realize how foolish that statement is? The proximal end of the humerus is totally shattered as well as part of the shaft, a good part acetabulum, extensive soft tissue damage to the deltoid and other ancillary muscles and you dismiss it as nothing more than “A shallow shoulder injury”? This “shallow shoulder injury" (really a wound) placed in the nipple to neck triangle as I previously stated and which you ignore hoping to give yourself any credence, would go through the much, much thinner manubrium in that triangle, enter the mediastinum and shred the heart. Come back and talk to me when you have some real world experience.

    Just so we are clear, one of homicides I handled in my last year before retiring involved a close up birdshot wound as I described above and the victim was instantaneously stopped and after convulsing for a few seconds apparently died. Pretty reliable close up performance with birdshot in light of my extensive experience.


    Neither is anything else with poor shot placement. In case you missed the gist of this discussion we are not talking about a shot to the shoulder, but a shot placed in the triangle. Perhaps it might do you some good to reread my post #71 and revisit the “gore” to reunite you with reality.
     
  3. AKElroy

    AKElroy Member

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    +1. In fact, it is hard to find a round that has worse OP issues than the 9mm. It seems to have the right combination of weight, diameter and velocity to be particularly troublesome with regard to OP. That said, I have 5 of them because I love the cheap practice, controllability and capacity. In studying this, it is hard to find any significant difference in 1 shot stop percentage between the 9. .40 and .45.

    For an HD gun, I do keep really light, fast loads in the bedside 9. 115gr DoubleTap +P+ just to limit the OP issues.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  4. Warp

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    Birdshot is not to be trusted to reliably stop an attacker.
     
  5. Akita1

    Akita1 Member

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    Echo the "whatever you're best with" posts. We did a test at our hunting camp to try to settle this argument (we have it all the time around the fire at night) with our various favorites, which included .223, 300 bo, 7.62 x 39, 9mm, .40, .45 ACP and 12 gauge 00 & slugs). We shot each one through drywall, glass, defunct appliances, 2 x 4, hollow and solid wood doors, cinderblock and brick - all at 50 feet. We lined them up in succession from perceived weakness to strength, then shot & moved to each successive target.

    The results were obvious ballistics 101 (won't restate them here because they are in many other places on this forum), but as expected the most consistent outcome with each one of us was the gun each one of us shoots the most or with which each feels most comfortable. All of us have kids ("sweeping the hall" and shooting through walls were perceived as unacceptable) and agreed we wouldn't be shooting through exterior walls so the cinderblock became a fun last one to see if our chosen holy grail would do the job.

    My personal favorite was the HK USC with XST 230 grain. It went through everything at 50 feet, excluding the cinderblock but it blew it apart from all the energy. I just bought 300 bo SBR and have yet to shoot it (yay BATFE timeline), but am expecting the subsonic ammo with an AAC SDN on it to be quite an exhilarating experience…could replace the USC(?). :)
     
  6. AKElroy

    AKElroy Member

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    Not true. The great dove rebellion has been brewing for years now. It's only a matter of time before the little bastards get even.
     
  7. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    Amazing!
    The OP started off saying "for home defense ONLY, inside the house, close ranges" and we get discussions about why police departments are switching from shotguns to ARs. Unless your home is 35,000 SF with REALLY long hallways your longest HD shot will be what? 30 feet? Is an AR more effective at 30 feet than 00 buck? I've seen holes in targets that tell me it's not. As the distance increases it certainly is but once again this is inside the house. At 20 feet my shotgun using my HD ammo has a 10" spread so assuming I aim straight(after soiling myself) I should put 6-7 pellets in the target area with one trigger pull.
    At 30 feet in the semi dark while I am possibly groggy I am not certain I want the AR. Most civilians don't practice being awakened at 3 AM and having to respond properly and I know I can't find my glasses half the time when I get jarred from a sound sleep. I seldom practice shooting in my bedroom or living room as the family tends to object. If I have kids in the house I probably am reluctant to keep a round in the chamber of any available gun but I know that is a personal call. My safe is 7 feet from my bed and I have a fully loaded 9mm, 45, and AR inside the locked safe(okay it's an RSC). Beside the bed I have a 12 g pump without a round in the chamber so the action is going to be audible. As mentioned earlier my dogs will have already, I hope, have made it a relatively noisy situation.
    As far as hearing protection in an HD scenario I have to call "poo" on that philosophy. I know it's gonna be loud and I know it's gonna hurt my ears but I can't really see a situation where I have my ear muffs available as well as a set for my wife and kids before I attempt to shoot a bad guy. I have ear muffs and plugs in the safe but I seriously doubt I will take the time or have the forethought to put them on in a tense situation like a home invasion. "Here honey, put on these ear muffs before you fire your gun" probably won't come into the equation.
     
  8. Warp

    Warp Member

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    SWAT officers moving in on a small house or even a trailer are more likely to select an AR than a shotgun.

    Effective range is FAR from the only advantage a 5.56 carbine offers over a shotgun.
     
  9. Akita1

    Akita1 Member

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    Good point on HD. I still barely hear the shot when shooting at a buck - not that it's not doing damage but the environmental circumstances (concentration on the shot, heart beating, proper breathing, trigger control, etc.) seem to overpower the noise. Great sarcasm jr.
     
  10. AKElroy

    AKElroy Member

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    For every problem, there is a solution. This is the tie breaker for me; my glasses won't fit in a .223 bore.
     

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  11. AKElroy

    AKElroy Member

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    Not my first / best line of defense. I'll stick with the shotgun while fang here hides under the coffee table.
     

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  12. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Electicians have a higher chance of dying from electrocution. Doctors have a higher chance of dying of hepatitis. Over-militarized police forces tend to want to play with their toys. That gets people unnecessarily hurt.
     
  13. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    I'll be blunt here, since subtle and polite didn't work initially: you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about when it comes to the manner in which we conduct ourselves in law enforcement, or the means by which we do it. You've never done my job, you've never faced the threats we face each day, and you don't know the first thing about how we operate. You don't like that we have AR-15's. Fine, got it. We still have them, and I paid for mine (no tax dollar argument to be had). We aren't "playing with our toys", nor are we getting "people unnecessarily hurt".

    So, now that this little issue is settled, can we stop derailing a home defense thread with unnecessary cop bashing?
     
  14. Warp

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    I think the end of that analogy should be "Police have a higher chance of dying from a car accident or felonious assault"
     
  15. monotonous_iterancy

    monotonous_iterancy Member

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    (sigh). Not this again. My thread had so many birdshot recommendations, why are we re-hashing it?

    Birdshot is designed to deal with birds, who are quite fragile. Not only is it made for birds, but it's designed to do minimal damage as to not harm meat that will be eaten. My experience with birdshot is that when shot at a relatively hard plastic, most pellets won't go all the way through, and some will even get stuck in the first layer.

    Would I rely on birdshot to defend myself? It might be a step above a BB gun, but otherwise, no!
     
  16. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    Well, I’ll be…! You finally get the big picture!!! Remove the qualifier “close up” and presto chango your statement becomes valid. That wasn’t so hard was it?

    But wait, just so you can get the last word in let me post it for you:

    Amen... hopefully.
     
  17. Warp

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    See post #76
     
  18. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    Oh I promise my dog will run and hide at the first sign of danger but he will raise all kinds of Heck for at least 10 seconds. A 150 pound Great Dane gets people's attention. Of course my little ankle biters are much more likely to actually bite someone.
     
  19. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    Hopefully the SWAT guys are not mostly asleep when they storm the trailer. They will also be backed up by other guys with guns as well as helicopters in many cases. They will follow flash-bangs and be wearing vests and helmets for protection.In a case of HD it will probably be just my wife as I hide under the bed so I need her to hit what she shoots at. I will be in my underwear(maybe) and slippers if I accidentally step on them. My helicopter pilot will not be on duty.
     
  20. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    How about 300BLK?

    I feel it would be a dandy home defense carbine.
     
  21. 2@low8

    2@low8 Member

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    I believe this was Balrod’s thread and shotguns and various loads entered the discussion as a viable alternative that should be considered. For you and others who came in late, I NEVER recommended birdshot. This rehashing only exists as a result of clarifying some unsupported and erroneous statements.

    … not to harm the meat? That all depends on what the distance to the bird is. When I first started hunting close-holding quail I made the error of shooting the closest bird out of the covey and then taking the lead bird. The result was a tuft of feathers that was the only remnants of the closest bird and an edible lead bird. I now take the lead bird first in a close-holding covey. And that was the gist of the discussion that birdshot is devastating up close. If you don’t think so check out these previously posted links:

    NOTE - VERY GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF HUMAN TISSUE DAMAGE

    The Wound: http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=187200&stc=1&d=1375329419

    Debris Removed (Note wad at bottom right): http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=187201&stc=1&d=1375329432

    Repair: http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=187202&stc=1&d=1375329452


    This is the x-ray that abstractly relates to the devastation in the “gore” links. It also shows the peripheral birdshot that was not removed from the wound. I’m not advocating the use of birdshot, but just mentioning that it should not be scoffed at either.

    [​IMG]

    BTW: Skin is a whole lot less resilient than hard plastic.
     

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  22. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    This type attitude is why some people don't like cops and don't think they need to be militarized.
     
  23. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

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    se fla i love claymores 01/sot
  24. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    As to the birdshot argument, I really don't think it is a reliably viable choice for home defense. It has certainly worked in some cases. On the other hand, if you get close enough to an attacker, even many "less lethal" rounds are lethal; the same can be said for birdshot. But, the lethality of birdshot quickly diminishes as distances increase, even within the distances that are available inside of an average home. I've seen a few cases where people were shot with birdshot at home defense distances and didn't suffer more than superficial injuries (painful injuries, to be sure, but not injuries that would take a reasonably determined attacker out of a fight).

    Many years ago I actually got hit with a partial load of light birdshot, at a distance that was still close enough that I could have certainly engaged the person who shot me with a pistol (it was a negligent discharge situation on the part of a childhood acquaintance, and the person got an earful of some very choice words instead of a bullet). Anyway, I had some minor cuts from the incident, but wasn't injured to the point that I needed to seek medical treatment, other than applying very basic first-aid to the cuts myself.

    Again, birdshot can work in some instances, it just isn't the shotgun load I'd choose to bet my life on, even at home defense distances.


    Respectfully, you're the one who entered a home defense thread and started preaching about how you believe that you know what tools I should and should not use in the performance of my job. My job hasn't been "militarized", as you so eloquently put it, but we have adapted our toolset to an evolving set of threats that we deal with. In the course of my career I've responded to gang shootings in which multiple active shooters were involved in firing at each other with semi-automatic rifles, and I've responded to mass shootings (some that you've certainly heard about) where up-armored psychopaths were intent on doing others harm. Truth be told, I'd have gone to each of these events even if I was only armed with the classic .38 Special 6-gun of yesteryear, but there's no sense in doing that when we have other more adequate options at our disposal. And, as I've repeatedly pointed out, your tax dollars didn't pay for the tools that I carry (that was indeed one of your original arguments against my ability to field an AR-15 as a special purpose tool for use in performing my job).

    EDITED TO ADD: Ha! My bad, this was your own thread that you derailed, so I guess I can't fault you for taking it off-topic... I didn't even notice that until just now. Anyway, good luck with your selection of a home defense tool. I think I've probably provided nearly all of the useful advice I can give to this thread at this point! Take the advice if you'd like it, ignore it if you think it's foolish (that's the beauty of internet advice). If you have any further questions about anything I suggested I'll still be happy to expand on those points, but do understand that I'm still not giving up my trusty AR-15 :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  25. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh enough. This is going in circles so lets call it done and add it to the heap of thread on what's best for home defense.
     
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