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Home Defense Question

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Cyborg, Nov 18, 2008.

  1. Cyborg

    Cyborg Member

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    I do not presently own any long guns but am looking at getting one or more shoulder weapons for home defense and would like to pick the brains of the folks here. I have two basic questions.

    1) Where/how could I acquire a (not necessarily new) M1A (or equivalent) for home defense. I like the ability of the steel jacketed 7.62mm to penetrate one side of a vehicle but not the other. I'm not worried about 1000yd accuracy, 200-300 yds is plenty. I am also leery of the M1 and Garand because of their limited magazine size and lack of ease of reloading. What can you folks tell me?

    2) I am looking at one of the semi-auto carbines that shoot pistol ammo for intermediate range work - further than the tactical ranges that I'd use my Glock or Baby Eagle for but closer than the 7.62. Wouldn't I get better accuracy at 25-100yds and good stopping power with a carbine firing the same .40S&W that my Glock and Baby Eagle use?

    You guys are MUCH smarter about weapons than I am.
     
  2. HOLY DIVER

    HOLY DIVER Senior Member

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    YEAH a rifle will shoot a .40 more accurate than a pistol now don't go wanting it to shoot 7/8 the way through a car! my personal rec. would be a AK or SKS
     
  3. gvnwst

    gvnwst Senior Member

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    For a rifle, a AR or AK sounds more suited to your uses than a larger M!A. FOr a carbine, Kel tec's Sub-2000 and beretta's storm carbine are both good choices.
     
  4. RP88

    RP88 Senior Member

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    your best bet is gonna be an AR15 (14.5-16" carbine).

    your best bet for the money is gonna be a pump shotgun.

    Niether are too bad on pentration.
     
  5. Bearhands

    Bearhands Member

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    Home Defense @ 2-300 yards? Shooting through cars?! Where is your home man?!
     
  6. woodfiend

    woodfiend Member

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    First off, 7.62 NATO doesn't use steel jackets. The only manufacturer that may do that is WOLF. Not sure there. In addition, I think 7.62 NATO would go through the whole car anyway as long as it didn't hit the engine block. The only ammo that might do this would have to be mushrooming hunting ammo or expanding hollowpoints and such. Even then, there is no guarantee. Second, the M1 and the Garand are the same rifle.
     
  7. SCMtns

    SCMtns New Member

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    I have an M1A Scout myself, but I can't say I'd recommend it for home defense. It even says in the owner's manual that it would be a poor choice for home defense or "neighborhood patrol," which made me laugh out loud when I read it. 7.62 is a great choice for a lot of things at 200-300 yds, but at that range it's not home defense, it's hunting or sniping. (Unless we're invaded, I suppose, but who'd be crazy enough to do that?)

    You'd be better off picking up something in .223 or 12 gauge, as others here are recommending, and maybe eventually picking up an M1A as a less likely to be useful but so damn fun choice. If I were to reach for a long gun in any sort of home defense scenario, it'd be either my Ruger Mini-14 or my Benelli 12-ga pump. If I lived in a free state, it'd be an AR-15 M4gery. The people who make gun laws in California know almost nothing about guns, so they think I can't be trusted with a semi-auto if it's black and has a pistol grip. Hopefully wherever you live, those people work in libraries rather than in government.

    You might also want to consider that if you ever use a weapon in self-defense, the cops are almost certain to take it away for a good while, and possibly forever. Depends on where you live and how the situation shakes out. Think how you'd feel if the cops took your $1500 battle rifle instead of your $300 12-ga pump. Save the battle rifle for 1) the range and 2) a hypothetical end-of-the-world scenario in which you no longer have to worry about what the police and the courts think, if you care to prepare for such an unlikely event.

    Edited to add: google up a site called waterboxotruth.com to see how many things will go all the way through a car. I think that particular one is called the Buick o' Truth.
     
  8. Kind of Blued

    Kind of Blued Senior Member

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    This was my question as well... :scrutiny:
     
  9. Cyborg

    Cyborg Member

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    A couple of guys asked about 2-300 yds and home defense. I was thinking of defending my family's compound in central New Mexico. Pistols and a scattergun (loaded with flechette rounds?) and even the pistol caliber carbine would be OK for meeting them at the gate but what if I wanted to post someone up on the wind turbine tower a couple of hundred yards away from the road? How well would an M1 do for that? And there is still the magazine capacity issue. IIRC, standard issue M1 had a 5rd internal mag. If the fertilizer impacted the wind machine wouldn't it be better to have the M1A's larger capacity, quickly replacable mag? My son (a vet of the 1st trip to the sandbox) has neighbors who share a lot of our beliefs about individual freedoms and who have already agreed to band together should everything go into the toilet. I might NEED something to reach out and touch someone with at 300yds or better but it would still be home defense.

    As for the 7.62 not being able to exit a vehicle, I have heard that from many sources - most notably my son. He had a close encounter of the unpleasant kind with an empty blue bus of the sort that the Iraquis used to move troops around in '91. He and some of his 88mike buddies had been dismounted and put on foot patrol. Ray was on point when he came accross the bus. Frakking thing (hope Granny isn't a BG fan) started shooting at him. He happened to be humping that 7.62 light machine gun that was the follow-on to the Nam era M60. After pouring a couple hundred rounds into the side of the bus and then emptying all his .223 ammo, he pulled the .45 I sent him and kicked open the door of the bus. Not a creature was stirring - not even a louse. Final score Ray-14, Iraqi bus-0. He told me that it looked like all his rounds had bounced around inside. IMS he got a ribbon with a little metal star for that activity.
     
  10. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Senior Member

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    Hi

    For 7.62 rifles the detachable magazine is certainly a nice feature and among the better candidates are the M1A , FAL, AR10 (or that style). The old M1 Garand actualy is an 8 round clip feed and not a bad choice either.

    For handgun cartridge carbines look perhaps at Kel-Tec , Hi-Point, Beretta . These are made in 9mm, .40S&W, and Beretta at least in .45 Auto

    Penitration is a matter that has several factors involved. The 7.62 Nato round can easily penitrate through area's of regular cars and light trucks. Note I say area's because there are area's that have heavier or more metal , and then there is the angles, and the distance from the muzzle, etc.
     
  11. C-grunt

    C-grunt Senior Member

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    Dont count out the AR15. With the green tip M855 rounds, current issue, you should have no problems in the penetration department. In fact gov. studies say it penetrates more at a few hundred yards than the 7.62.

    If you want the 7.62 though, I gotta agree with mnrivrat above that the M1A, FAL, AR10 and Ill add the G3/HK91/Cetme rifles would all be a great choice.

    That machine gun your son was carrying is called the M240. I loved that gun when I was in. Tell your son good job for me.
     
  12. gvnwst

    gvnwst Senior Member

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    AR is your best bet. Accurate for cheap (compared to the M1) and has enough penetration. IIRC, most M1s are heavier than the AR, and so a guard ina tower probably would like the AR better. That and thefact that if he blotches a shot, follow up is quicker. Also able to put out more rounds more quickly, if the need arises.


    Buckshot (or fletchetts) would be fine for a shotgun, most will recomend a 870, the standard of shotguns.
     
  13. Rifleman 173

    Rifleman 173 Member

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  14. zombienerd

    zombienerd Member

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    Last edited: Nov 20, 2008
  15. foghornl

    foghornl Senior Member

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    The US Rifle Cal .30 M1, popularly known as "The Garand" uses an 8-round 'En-Bloc' clip. The clip is ejected after the last round is fired, and bolt stays open. I can reload my M1 Garand faster than any other rifle I own. (I'm not too shabby with the 10-round stripper clips for my SKS, but the M1 is faster.)

    For "Pistol-Caliber-Carbine/Rifle" things, there are a bunch out there... 9mm, .40, .45ACP (used only, no one currently offers an auto-loader carbine in .45ACP) Lever-action guns open up more choices... .357Mag or .44Mag or .45Colt. Non-Pistol caliber choices are even more available.. .30/30, .35Rem, .45-70 .444Marlin, and many others.
     
  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    From Cyborg:
    Suggest you get some legal advice on what kind of shooting situation involving shooting at a vehicle and/or at such a distance might constitute justifiable homicide.

    Personally, I cannot visualize any in the U. S.

    Let us know what you find out.
     
  17. ProCarryNAustin

    ProCarryNAustin Member

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    I read through your scenario a couple of times. No offense, but if that actually comes to pass the first thing you will find out is that the other guys will be able to bring bigger toys to the party than you will be able to get ahold of.

    Just a thought.

    Daniel
    Austin, Texas
     
  18. woodfiend

    woodfiend Member

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    "As for the 7.62 not being able to exit a vehicle, I have heard that from many sources - most notably my son. He had a close encounter of the unpleasant kind with an empty blue bus of the sort that the Iraquis used to move troops around in '91."

    Ok, a bus is completely different from a car. Is your "compound" going to be attacked by BGs with Iraqi troop carriers.
     
  19. JDoe

    JDoe Member

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    What is your budget?

    How much $$ do you have available for these purchases (including ammo)?

    How many people would you be arming?
     
  20. RockyMtnTactical

    RockyMtnTactical Senior Member

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  21. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Senior Member

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    Your best bet for a home defense long gun would be a shotgun. A pump or sxs. A jacketed bullet from a hi-power rifle well go through your walls and the walls of your neighbors.
    A Remington ot Mossberg pump 12ga is low cost and reliable. Buy some ammo and practice. #4 buck is deadly and well not penetrate into your neighbors home. My AR's and M1A's are in the safe, my shotgun is beside the bed.
     
  22. GarandOwner

    GarandOwner Member

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    Out of curiosity, what would be your answer on the form for your background check for number 12......you know the one that states "Have you ever been adjudicated incapacitated, committed to a mental institution, or adjudicated mentally defective? Yes, or No"
     
  23. Mike U.

    Mike U. Member

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    Cyborg,

    Do you and your family a favor and drop the whole idea of using flechettes.
    They are just barely on this side of worthless. Flechettes are a novelty shell that do not adequately penetrate and many or most of the darts hit the target sideways. They also don't fly very far. I've read and seen pics of test results but I can't remember where right now. All that was proven was they are nearly worthless for social situations.
    It could cost you big if you only piss your opponent off by sticking him with a few pins.

    If your engaging an opponent from 0-40 yards use buckshot. 0-100 yards use slugs. Going for targets 100 to 150 yards out with a shotgun? Use sabot slugs. Your choice. Stick with what's proven.
    Also be aware of over-penetration issues. Slugs and buckshot could be hazardous to others if used indoors because of over-penetration.

    Please discard the idea of using novelty shells in your shotgun. Unless your doing it for entertainment purposes.
     
  24. Dr_2_B

    Dr_2_B Senior Member

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    I've always liked the extra velocity one gets from a pistol cartridge when it's fired from a carbine. BUT my personal feelings are as follows: If I'm going employ a long gun, I'm definitely going to fire a long gun cartridge. I'd recommend an AR 15 for your purposes.
     
  25. Cyborg

    Cyborg Member

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    Thanks for the response on flechettes, Mike. I had read some things about them but had never actually used one. I also was not aware of there being a sabot round for a scattergun. What is the caliber of the actual projectile and how much energy would it actually transfer to the target since I would expect it to "over penetrate"?

    I have also wondered what would happen if you put lead shot slightly smaller than double ought into a thin, light sub casing such as that in which the flechettes are kept. Logically, wouldn't that keep the round balls from bouncing around as they traveled down the barrell and thus keep them in a tighter pattern? My understanding is that part of the inaccuracy of a scattergun is due to the pellets bounding off one another and being deformed in the process.

    Please note that I do NOT consider myself to be highly knowledgable as regards firearms. I own 2 semi-automatic pistols chambered for .40 S&W (a Glock 22 and a compact Uzi Eagle) and an inexpensive 12gau pump SG.

    As for using a long gun to defend my home, I guess they don't have "drive by" shootings where you live. They're getting pretty common here in Alamo Town. I fairly certain that having the holes in the brick siding of my house would keep me from being prosecuted for returning fire. I have already prepared a strong point in my front bedroom. Between the brick and the quarter inch of steel behind the gyp board, I figure I'm safe from most things the gang bangers are likely to carry.

    As for wanting to reach out and touch someone at 300yds, that would only be in a post "things totally gone to hell in a handbasket" scenario. Think "The Postman" or "Mad Max" or Jericho". Or read the installments of Mike Vanderboegh in-work novel. Or maybe it would be a world like John Titor said he came from.
     

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