pbearperry
Member
If you are not a scum bag,or a drug dealer,the only way it will be cops banging on your door is that the cops are hitting the wrong address.There are some folks here that will swear that happens a lot but they are wrong.
Home invaders pretend to be police
- Thread starter Zoogster
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sprithitler
Member
Doesnt change the fact that you need all the time you can buy and that you really want to establish a killzone where you can engage the invaders at your leisure.
pberry says;
You still haven't answered my question; pberry as a police officer and LEO apologist what recommendations do you have for the peaceable and law abiding folks on how to deal with a home invasion by thugs dressed as cops?
but he doesn't acknowledge what happened to Ms. Johnson in Atlanta or any other case where the police have botched the investigation or wrongfully invaded an innocent persons home. Why is that pberry?
How wrong are they pberry and how many botched raids are acceptable?
You still haven't answered my question; pberry as a police officer and LEO apologist what recommendations do you have for the peaceable and law abiding folks on how to deal with a home invasion by thugs dressed as cops?
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Apart from home invasions, I think we ought to go after the compliant pasty-faced judges who sign the warrants on the mere "recommendation" of the cops.
Rails come to mind.
And tar.
And feathers.
And impeachment..
Rails come to mind.
And tar.
And feathers.
And impeachment..
jrfoxx
Member
Or someone can just call in a fake hostage situation/murder just like the kids in WA did a year or so ago that got a CA families house raided by a LARGE number of HEAVILY armed SWAT members, where the whole family got to be tackled, have full autos pointed at thier heads, cuffed, dragge outside, etc.Google "swatting". That wasnt a single isolated case. There are some people that do it for fun.So, you can get raided because the cops screw up, which happens (I beleive CATO has an interactive map that shows all the wrong address raids fot the last year. Theres more than just a few), or the cops could be criminals themselves like the LA or Chicago (I forget which, or may have been both) cops recently running a home invasion ring, or some minor druggie gives a bogus name/address/tip to the cops so they'll let him go, as has also been in the news within the last year, or some kids with computers set you up for a massive SWAT raid for fun, like I mention earlier, etc. Seems like there are a fair number of ways to get raided beyond being a scumbag, or the "rare" wrong address raid, thats so rare there is a whole website dedicated to them.....
Ah, heres the map I mention, and a quote from the site, so you can see how "rare" it is (a mere 23 times REPORTED just since '06):
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
23 times too many, IMHO, and 9 inuries/deaths too many also. 'Course, I'm sure if it happened to YOUR family, you'd be ok with it it, as its so rare, and you'd tell the cops not to sweat it.Honest mistake that hardly ever happens, so no big deal, right?
Treo
member
If we go by pberry's logic ( rarity means no big deal, probly never happen to you any way yada,yada,yada ) we should all quit carrying since we rarely need our guns
Deanimator
Member
Or unless they're there to rob you. Google the name "Jerome Finnegan" and "SOS".
So, any time somebody breaks down my door, I should assume it's the cops at the wrong address? What do I win if I'm wrong? What do I win if they're the cops but are there to rob or kidnap me?
JCMAG
Member
AWESOME!
Cannonball888
Member
Instead of POLICE printed on my vest I want POLITE. I don't want to be arrested for impersonating a cop.
Back when I was in high school I think it was, there was a group of home invaders (back before it was called that) that got into a whole bunch of people's houses by claiming to be police.
The local cops at first refused to even tell the public this was happening. I think eventually a local radio station spilled the beans. The cops actually retaliated against the radio station by banning their reporters from news scenes for a period of time.
Point is that it is not a new tactic crooks just came up with.
I think these days of Internet blogging and such, it is a lot harder for police to hide important information like this the public needs and should have.
As for hardening your home, its a good idea, but it is only practical to go so far. A hook on a wrecker can pull out a window or door in a few seconds, no matter how secure it is. If the door doesn't go, the wall will. Even a masonry wall can only take so much.
I have given a fair amount of thought to just what is practical to do as far as hardening a typical home. I have come to the conclusion that typical construction does not lend itself to hardening very easily. It has to be considered in the construction of the home.
The local cops at first refused to even tell the public this was happening. I think eventually a local radio station spilled the beans. The cops actually retaliated against the radio station by banning their reporters from news scenes for a period of time.
Point is that it is not a new tactic crooks just came up with.
I think these days of Internet blogging and such, it is a lot harder for police to hide important information like this the public needs and should have.
As for hardening your home, its a good idea, but it is only practical to go so far. A hook on a wrecker can pull out a window or door in a few seconds, no matter how secure it is. If the door doesn't go, the wall will. Even a masonry wall can only take so much.
I have given a fair amount of thought to just what is practical to do as far as hardening a typical home. I have come to the conclusion that typical construction does not lend itself to hardening very easily. It has to be considered in the construction of the home.
TallPine
Member
You got that right. A house is only as secure as it's weakest point. You could go through most walls with a chainsaw in about 30 seconds or less with practice.
I'm thinking something like 10 foot thick stone walls with the door on the second floor and a ladder that you pull up at night
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
You are probably correct that wrong-address raids by actual police are less common than home invasion robberies by criminals pretending to be police.
If I am understanding you correctly, then, your advice to the law-abiding homeowner who is not doing anything that would prompt a raid, would be to treat any instance of your door being smashed in by black-clad men yelling "Police!" as a home invasion robbery by criminals and not police, since the chance of it being a wrong-address police raid are vanishingly small?
That would be the logical outcome of the "wrong-address police raids are so rare as to be irrelevant to to the question" position. The problem is, some small percentage of such instances are the police raiding the wrong house, and the question in the OP pertains to whether there is any realistic way of sorting out the two.
An interesting instance of a quick-knock raid...only this time it was on a government official...
http://www.nolanchart.com/article4393.html
http://www.nolanchart.com/article4393.html
lloydkristmas
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There is no legitimate reason any police officers would be "no-knocking" at my house. If my door comes crashing down, its either because it is a home invasion, or because it is a raid on the wrong house. If you are a home invader, you better be prepared to die for your mission. If you are a cop who would endanger innocent lives because you failed to verify your target, well....I guess youd better be ready to do the same. Im not taking chances with my families life.
Stevie-Ray
Member
Same here, +1000!
Elza
Member
There are some here that say there are very few bad “no-knocks”. They also say that the vast majority of cops are not JBT’s. I’ll concede both points. I suspect that most “no-knocks” go as planned against the proper person(s). (This is not to be construed as my liking them or agreeing with their use. I don’t!) I further suspect that most of the cops are decent people.
So having said this, here are two questions for the LEO apologists/cheerleaders that I would like to see answers to:
If I accidently kill/maim/injure someone I will be held accountable and rightly so. When the cops do it they get a pass and possibly a medal/promotion. Why aren’t they held to the same standards as everyone else?
Most cops are good folks. Yet, they tolerate the bad ones and allow them to besmirch the entire profession even to the point of allowing themselves to be tarred with the same brush. Why don’t they carry out their own trash?
I would truly like to see honest answers to these questions. Because until these two problems are rectified, cops are never going to garner the trust and respect that they claim they deserve.
So having said this, here are two questions for the LEO apologists/cheerleaders that I would like to see answers to:
If I accidently kill/maim/injure someone I will be held accountable and rightly so. When the cops do it they get a pass and possibly a medal/promotion. Why aren’t they held to the same standards as everyone else?
Most cops are good folks. Yet, they tolerate the bad ones and allow them to besmirch the entire profession even to the point of allowing themselves to be tarred with the same brush. Why don’t they carry out their own trash?
I would truly like to see honest answers to these questions. Because until these two problems are rectified, cops are never going to garner the trust and respect that they claim they deserve.
whosyrdaddy
Member
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- 332
So we can assume that you would support legislation granting immunity to homeowners in these rare occurrences so that they need not hesitate to shoot.
Yeah, I didn't think so.
lloydkristmas
Member
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So what would happen to me if six to eight armed men in black gear burst into my house in the middle of the night, hollering and screaming, only to be met with semiautomatic rifle fire from multiple family members? If I survive, am I prosecuted? Is it just chalked up to "bad information" and everyone goes home with an apology? Do the cops get medals of valor? What happens?
Elza
Member
I would be utterly dumbfounded if you weren’t. If a cop dies you will likely wind up with a needle in your arm. (I am assuming that you mean the intruders are cops.)
I want to start by saying that I am indeed a cop, as you may have noticed from my forum name. I don't want to debate the validity of the "war on drugs", but I do have some opinions I want to share. First, given that sometimes we have to arrest heavily armed criminals, and sometimes it really does have to be in their homes, I do believe that the "shock and awe" type of police raid is sometimes the best option. Not always, but sometimes. Second, while I would agree that I would defend my family to the last breath in my body, I have to ask many of you one important question; How heavily armed are you, right now, in your home? For me, it's 0030hrs, and I've had a few beers. My guns are tucked away. Yeah, if I had at least a short warning, I could get to one, but if the first indication I had that there was something happening was the flash bang through the window or the door coming down, I would be caught flatfooted. And while I would never discourage anyone from defending their family, what is the likelihood that even if you get a shot off at the first guy through the door, the next half dozen or so aren't going to fill you so full of lead that your autopsy will be a hazardous waste cleanup? Please understand, I am in no way condoning the erroneous raids mentioned throughout this thread, just interjecting what I think are some valid points/questions.
You really have to ask?
Many here wear the tin foil hat proudly.
To answer your question, right now I have my Sig P228 next to me and my CCTV monitor should show anyone approaching from outside at least giving me a couple minutes warning.
Wesson Smith
Member
I guess that if I've gone to bed at night, knowing I have no priors and there's no bench warrant out for my arrest, and the last ticket I got was for going 34 in a 25, I'm going to defend my home when the door comes crashing down at 2 AM. Yes, I may get outgunned by either the cops or the meth-heads dressed in blue, and I may go to jail for making the wrong choice. One thing I'm not going to do, ever, is lay down my arms in a frenzied, panicked scenario such as that. I'm no warrior, and don't pretend to be one, but all parties concerned here need to know that there are a growing number of citizens who routinely sleep with either a bedside 12 ga. pump or a battle rifle at the ready. As far as I'm concerned, that gun is there for one reason only - to attempt to repel a home invasion involving multiple intruders, whomever they may be.
chieftain
Member
BINGO!
Most folks have never been on the receiving end of violence of action or force of action, particularly by a trained, disciplined, and motivated team. If you are REALLY REALLY GOOD, you might take one of them out, before you are put down.
If you are in fact armed with most likely a side arm, you are now being overrun by several fellows in body armor rifles/shotguns, bright lights in your face, the flashbang that just went off, and whole lot of folks hollering at you. Now if you should lift your weapon, and possibly hit any of your attackers, Sarge said it very well about a "toxic autopsy", and I would like to advise that all those AR rifles firing directly at you in a room at distances of 3 to 12 feet, well you world will be rocked. Your hearing is gone, no night vision, you are confused and "where did all those holes in my chest come from?"
Frankly if a trained team hits you, you are basically screwed. Doesn't much matter if they are good guys making a mistake, or bad guys there to steal or take care of you, or both. You are screwed. The good news is that very few bad guys are trained and organized as a strike team and properly equipped.
That is why what happened in Phoenix recently is so shocking. A tactical team in police garb, helmets, body armor, and AR rifles, shot a guy and his house to hell. A tactical team cop was in the area and gave chase. The Phx PD caught most of them. When cornered they turned on the police but luckily had run out of ammo. At least one admitted having military training in Mexico. It should be noted that the main stream media have under covered this incident.
Go figure.
Fred
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