House passes VT gun bill

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Marxist utopia: The government decides who is capable of everything, (including owning guns, speaking their mind, etc) perfectly, without overstepping their authority. Everyone is happy!

Jeffersonian reality (not a "perfect government", but only a "more perfect" one, aka a "better" government): Everyone gets to excercise their rights. Some will abuse them. Individuals will catch, try and convict the guilty using a jury of their peers. Yes, this means some innocent people will die, but tyranny will not exist.

Pick one.
 
If someone is bipolar I, are they affected by this bill?

No, the definitions are not changed one bit, if anything they have narrowed slightly. I was worried about this too, but I am not even close to the threashold.
I have noticed the BATF (who ultimately enforces this) is careful about differentiating between those who seek mental help on their own, and those who are forced.

Sometimes you people here at THR oppose a bill even if it has big gains for us. You prefer a broken system where denials can happen for stupid reasons? How about those are denied because they had a Domestic violence charge, but that was dropped, and NICS doesnt note it? Appeals for our vets? This is a win for us, and the 101st THR Tin Foil Hat Airborne division types here cant see it.

And for those of you say 'my solution is to get rid of it' it will never, ever happen so stop hoping for it.
 
So why do they need to pass a law that enforces the same thing as existing laws?

There's no new law, just a bill that opens up funding grants to the states that increase their compliance with the existing system.
 
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So why do they need to pass a law that enforces the same thing as existing laws?

There's no new law, just a bill that opens up funding grants to the states that increase their compliance with the existing system.

So it's a tax increase?
 
The fact that the NRA supported this, is tempting me to not renew my membership. While I agree that mentally unstable people should not have firearms, it is all to easy to declare someone mentally unstable. Given that any instance where mental help is administered could now disqualify someone from owning a firearm, and be reported in an FBI database I have a feeling that a lot of people will not seek the help they need. Also, the NRA's "concessions" of petitioning to restore rights are a joke. You can legally petition to restore your rights now. But guess what? No one has because that has been deliberately not funded. :banghead:
 
Given that any instance where mental help is administered could now disqualify someone from owning a firearm

Since when? I didnt see this in the bill. The rules are no different. They set the bar pretty high. And unlike before, you have a means to remove yourself from the list once youre 'no longer a danger'.
 
So, hypothetically, will I now be barred from excercising my God-given inalienable rights because I checked myself into a 30-day program 18 years ago?
 
So, hypothetically, will I now be barred from excercising my God-given inalienable rights because I checked myself into a 30-day program 18 years ago?

Did you miss the part about voluntary committals? And the other part about removing people from the list once it was no longer relevant?
 
So, hypothetically, will I now be barred from excercising my God-given inalienable rights because I checked myself into a 30-day program 18 years ago?

Nope.

The qualifying incident that would bar you from purchasing, being found mentally deficient by a judge in a court of law has not changed.

The new legislation is soley about making sure that information gets into the federal database in a timely manner, so that normal checks, already in place, will readily find it. That's all.
 
All its doing is finally enforcing what is already on the books into the NICS. Nobody wants someone straight out of the nut hut to be buying guns when their mentally deficient, I sure don't. The VT gunman was a complete nutbar to say the least. Granted he would've retrieved guns somehow, but if it makes it harder to attain them legally, than so be it. The working order of a saturday night special is questionable at best.
 
I've never seen someone "adjudicated mentally defective" pulled away from a picket line. Their persons, houses, papers, and effects are still (supposed to be) secured from unreasonable searches and seizures. They can't be forced to incriminate themselves, their right to a speed and public trial by an impartial jury is still intact.

It is a Bill of Rights, not a Bill of Rights For People We Think Fit To Have 'Em. That said, this law does nothing to hurt us anymore and wins us several goodies.
 
"While I agree that mentally unstable people should not have firearms, it is all to easy to declare someone mentally unstable. Given that any instance where mental help is administered could now disqualify someone from owning a firearm, and be reported in an FBI database "

No. No. No.

It's not the diagnosis by the doctor, it's the judge saying you are involuntarily committed that puts you on the list.

Only 20 states currently report involuntary committments to the federal database/NICS. The courts have decreed that if the feds won't pay for gathering and submitting the info then the states don't have to do it. So only 20, or was it 22, submit involuntary committment info.

About half the committment info in NICS is from Virginia FWIW.

This new bill provides funding, money, to the states to encourage them to submit the involuntary committment info. Not voluntary treatment info, but adjudications - involuntary committments where the judge decides a person is a danger to themselves or others and orders treatment. FWIW, many of the 2- or 3-day evaluations result in the judge allowing the person to voluntarily enter treatment and that won't count. Only when the judge orders a committment does it count.

It's not about mental health, it's about the court ordered treatment. I suppose the easiest way to think about it is that if you have enough sense to realize you need treatment then you are not a danger.

John
 
The qualifying incident that would bar you from purchasing, being found mentally deficient by a judge in a court of law has not changed.

The new legislation is soley about making sure that information gets into the federal database in a timely manner, so that normal checks, already in place, will readily find it. That's all.

and

All its doing is finally enforcing what is already on the books into the NICS.

So we despirately need a new law to enforce the ones already on the books.

:confused:
 
So we despirately need a new law to enforce the ones already on the books.

IF the state reporting agencies have not been voluntarily forwarding that information as they should? Then yes.
 
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"So we despirately need a new law to enforce the ones already on the books."

IF the state reporting agencies have not been voluntarily forwarding that information as they should? Then yes.

So if a state chooses not to send in said information about it's citizens, how does that effect interstate commerce?
 
From NRA's website

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=219&issue=018

H.R. 2640, the "NICS Improvement Act"

The new version of the NICS Improvement Act (H.R. 2640) would require federal agencies to provide records of prohibited individuals for use in NICS. It would also provide financial incentives to states to do the same, by rewarding states that provide records to NICS and penalizing those that refuse to do so over an extended period of time.

Some pro-gun groups have claimed that H.R. 2640 would “prohibit” thousands of people from owning guns. This is not true; these bills would only enforce current prohibitions. In fact, H.R. 2640 would allow some people now unfairly prohibited from owning guns to have their rights restored, and to have their names removed from the instant check system.

The following are the key provisions of H.R. 2640, introduced by Reps. John Dingell (D-Mich.), Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), Lamar Smith (R-Tex.) and Rick Boucher (D-Va.), which passed the House of Representatives by a voice vote on June 13, 2007.

Key Provisions of H.R. 2640

--H.R. 2640 would prevent use of federal “adjudications” that consist only of medical diagnoses without findings that the people involved are dangerous or mentally incompetent.

For example, NICS currently accepts Veterans' Administration decisions that a veteran or other beneficiary is an “adjudicated mental defective” where there was no “adjudication” at all--only a decision that the patient is unable to manage his own finances. Many patients may have accepted such a decision without expecting to lose their gun ownership rights.

H.R. 2640 would eliminate purely medical records from NICS. Gun ownership rights would only be lost as a result of a finding that the person is a danger to himself or others, or lacks the capacity to manage his own affairs.

--H.R. 2640 would require all federal agencies that impose mental health adjudications or commitments (such as the VA) to provide a process for “relief from disabilities.” The bill allows de novo judicial review when an agency denies relief--that is, the court would look at the application on its merits, rather than deferring to the agency's earlier decision.

As a practical matter, the mental health disability is the only firearm disqualifier that can never be removed. Criminal records can be expunged or pardoned, but mental records cannot.

While BATFE used to have the ability to accept applications to remove individuals' prohibited status, appropriations riders every year since 1992 have barred it from doing so. Allowing this process through H.R. 2640 would be an improvement over the current law.

Under H.R. 2640, even if a person is inappropriately committed or declared incompetent by a federal agency, the person would have an opportunity to correct the error--either through the agency or in court.

--H.R. 2640 would prevent reporting of mental adjudications or commitments by federal agencies when those adjudications or commitments have been removed.

--H.R. 2640 would also make clear that if a federal adjudication or commitment has expired or been removed, it would no longer bar a person from possessing or receiving firearms under the Gun Control Act.

This actually restores the person's rights, as well as deleting the record from NICS--a significant improvement over current law.

--States that receive funding would also need to have a relief from disabilities program for mental adjudications and commitments. State relief programs would have to provide for de novo judicial review, as in the federal programs.

Relief granted by a state program would remove the federal prohibition on the person possessing or receiving a firearm under the Gun Control Act--again, an improvement over current law.

Many states have processes for temporary emergency commitments that allow a short-term commitment based only on affidavits from police, doctors or family members, without opportunity for a hearing. Because federal law prohibits gun possession by a person who “has been” committed, a person committed under such a process can't possess a gun even after full release from the temporary order. By requiring participating states to have a relief program that actually removes the disability, H.R. 2640 would be a significant improvement over current law.

--The legislation would improve the accuracy and completeness of NICS by requiring federal agencies and participating states to provide relevant records. For instance, it would give states an incentive to report people such as Virginia Tech murderer Seung-Hui Cho--that is, people who were found after a full court hearing to be a danger to themselves or others, but not reported to NICS due to lack of funding or contrary state laws.

--The legislation requires removal of expired, incorrect or otherwise irrelevant records. Today, totally innocent people (e.g., individuals with arrest records, who were never convicted of the crime charged) are sometimes subject to delayed or denied firearm purchases because of incomplete records in the system.

--The legislation prohibits federal fees for NICS checks. Under current law, only annual appropriations riders prohibit the FBI from trying to impose fees by regulation (as the Clinton Administration proposed in 1998). A permanent ban on such a “gun tax” has been an NRA priority for nearly a decade.

--The legislation requires an audit by the Government Accountability Office of funds already spent for criminal history improvements. There has only been limited documentation of how hundreds of millions of dollars intended for NICS were spent on non-NICS programs such as automated fingerprint systems.

Voluntary Psychological Treatment

Neither current federal law, nor H.R. 2640, would prohibit gun possession by people who have voluntarily sought psychological counseling or checked themselves into a hospital:

--Current law only prohibits gun possession by people who have been “adjudicated as a mental defective” or “committed to any mental institution.” Current BATFE regulations specifically exclude commitments for observation and voluntary commitments. Records of voluntary treatment also would not be available under federal and state health privacy laws.

Similarly, voluntary drug or alcohol treatment would not be reported to NICS. First, voluntary treatment is not a “commitment.” Second, current federal law on gun possession by drug users, as applied in BATFE regulations, only prohibits gun ownership by those whose “unlawful [drug] use has occurred recently enough to indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such conduct.”

In short, neither current law nor this legislation would affect those who voluntarily get psychological help. No person who needs help for a mental health or substance abuse problem should be deterred from seeking that help due to fear of losing Second Amendment rights.
 
how does that effect interstate commerce?

The one thing appreciate most as I get older, is how quickly I realize some arguments aren't worth having.
 
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"how does that effect interstate commerce?"

The one thing appreciate most as I get older, is how quickly I realize some arguments aren't worth having.

Yup. Some people just get set in their ways...

I find it interesting that someone could just give up a debate, one that has been civil with no name calling, simply because they are tired of it. Surely, even though you have only been a member of The High Road for 5 days, you know that people here thoroughly debate any new gun legislation that will affect their rights...
 
I find it interesting that someone could just give up a debate, one that has been civil with no name calling, simply because they are tired of it. Surely, even though you have only been a member of The High Road for 5 days, you know that people here thoroughly debate any new gun legislation that will effect their rights...

I'm not being less than civil, and I fail to see how the date of registration to this board affects the validity of my opinion, if we're discussing cheap shots.

I'm more than happy to participate in discussion, that's why I'm here. However at the point a discussion devolves into argument, I don't see the point.

I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, what I am saying is that it certainly *seems* to me, that you're not interested in the merits of the legislation or lack thereof, but rather baiting an argument for the "any gun law is a bad law" camp.

I would suggest that you read the full text of the legislation available here http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.0297: , which may clear up some of your questions and move this in a positive direction.
 
I would really like to see some clarification on this point:

It would automatically restore the purchasing rights of veterans who were diagnosed with mental problems as part of the process of obtaining disability benefits. LaPierre said the Clinton administration put about 80,000 such veterans into the background check system.

It also outlines an appeals process for those who feel they have been wrongfully included in the system and ensures that funds allocated to improve the NICS are not used for other gun control purposes.

But that's not what the GOA says in their recent letter:

Under the terms of this compromise, the Post says, "individuals with
minor infractions in their pasts could petition their states to have
their names removed from the federal database, and about 83,000
military veterans, put into the system by the Department of Veterans
Affairs in 2000 for alleged mental health reasons, would have a
chance to clean their records."

Oh really? The Brady law already contains a procedure for cleaning
up records. But it hasn't worked for the 83,000 veterans that are
currently prohibited from buying guns. Gun Owners of America is
aware of many people who have tried to invoke this procedure in the
Brady Law, only to get the run around -- and a form letter -- from
the FBI. The simple truth is that the FBI and the BATFE think the
83,000 veterans, and many other law-abiding Americans, should be in
the NICS system.

After all, that's what federal regulations decree. Unless these regs
are changed, Congress can create as many redundant procedures for
cleaning up these records as it wants, but the bottom line is, there
is nothing that will force the FBI to scrub gun owners' name from the
NICS system.

Not only that, there is a Schumer amendment in federal law which
prevents the BATFE from restoring the rights of individuals who are
barred from purchasing firearms. If that amendment is not repealed,
then it doesn't matter if your state stops sending your name for
inclusion in the FBI's NICS system... you are still going to be a
disqualified purchaser when you try to buy a gun.

Moreover, will gun owners who are currently being denied the ability
to purchase firearms -- such as the military veterans who have
suffered from post-traumatic stress -- be recompensed in any way for
their efforts to "clean their records"? They will, no doubt, have to
spend thousands of dollars going to a shrink for a positive
recommendation, for hiring lawyers to take their case to court, etc.

And this is not to mention the fact that this procedure turns our
whole legal system on its head. Americans are presumed innocent
until PROVEN guilty. But these brave souls, who risked their lives
defending our country, were denied the right to bear arms because of
a mental illness "loophole" in the law. Their names were added to
the prohibited purchasers' list in West Virginia without any due
process, without any trial by jury... no, their names were just added
by executive fiat. They were unilaterally, and unconstitutionally,
added into the NICS system by the Clinton administration. And now
the burden of proof is ON THEM to prove their innocence. Isn't that
backwards?

One wonders if these military veterans will be any more successful in
getting back their gun rights than the gun owners in New Orleans who
tried to get back their firearms which were confiscated in the wake
of Hurricane Katrina. (Gun owners in the Big Easy have found it very
difficult to prove their case and get their guns back, even though
the courts have ruled that the police acted improperly in
confiscating their firearms.) But isn't that the problem when honest
people are thrust into the position of PROVING their innocence to the
government, rather than vice-versa.

The fact is, current federal law -- combined with BATFE's
interpretations of that law -- will make it very unlikely that any
court will restore the Second Amendment rights of those 83,000
veterans.

So who is right?

Gregg
 
I'm not being less than civil, and I fail to see how the date of registration to this board affects the validity of my opinion, if we're discussing cheap shots.

I brought it up because you ignored my very pertinent question on how this bill is justified as a Federal action (the Fed can only enforce it's will over states if it affects interstate commerce. Otherwise it is unconstitutional according to the Tenth Amendment). You avoided that point and insinuated that I was simply being unreasonable...aka you avoided the debate and insinuated the problem was with me. So did I make a "cheap shot"? If so, I was not the intitiator. Tit for tat.

I will definitely debate the bill on it's merits (or lack there of), but when someone starts avoiding the question and attacking me I reserve the right to get suspicious.
 
After seeing this bill, I am no longer a member of the NRA or the NRA Range. This state is conditional upon them changing their tune to an absolutist view of the Second Amendment. That won't happen, so I'll have to find another range.
 
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