How “Prepared” Are You…Really?

[Geno]

Every time we read of one of these psycho-shooters, we hear CCW-holders claim the panacea that “…if a CCW had been there…”. For fact, we can point to instances in history where a CCWer did stop a crime. But, in reality, how well-prepared are most CCW-holders?

How many CCW-holders practice on weekly basis? Monthly? Quarterly basis? For fact, some simply re-qualify every 3 to 5 years. I actually saw that happen. The gentleman failed the CCW-renewal-shooting-test...at 7 yards, he could not hit a 12" paper plate. Equally important, I ponder at what distance do most CCW-holders practice for engagement? Do they practice Tactical Shooting? Can they scoot-while-they-shoot? Can they shoot over, under, around cover? Can "cover" and move an unarmed person to safety, and not lose body contact...oh yes...and while they do this, they must hit the target 17 of 17 shots? That is Advanced Tactical Shooting, my friends.

It seems to me that we assume that all CCW-holders can, could, would be able to do this. But can they? Can you? Have you taken and passed a Tactical Shooting course? Have you taken and passed an Advanced Tactical Shooting course?

Some additional points that I believe we should ponder include, what if a shooting breaks out at 75 yards, and you have no cover available at a closer range? Are you sufficiently accomplished to engage this bad-guy who has a carbine? I think there is more to consider than simply we should be allowed to carry whenever, and wherever. Does our current practice have us prepared for extended-distance engagements?

The very sad fact is, we do not know what outcomes might have changed if CCWs had been allowed in the most recent mall shooting. I'm just thinking out-loud. I know my answers to all of these. I don't know your answers, and I will not assume. Please keep the conversation THR. There is room to disagree to be certain.

Doc2005

 

[RioShooter]

I shoot IDPA and bowling pins on alternate Thursday nights, pins every Saturday morning, and skeet every Sunday. On Saturday after shooting pins I walk over to the rifle range. Last Saturday I shot my Mosin-Nagant; also an SKS, AK-47, .50 BMG rifle, and a Marlin 60. Once a month I also put a few rounds of buckshot through my bedside Mossberg 500.

I carry a 38 snubby, and can consistently hit a 3" bullseye at 75 feet. Last Sunday I practiced making rattlesnake head shots by placing limes on the ground and shooting them with my snubby at 6'. I didn't miss one shot.

I'm still not sure if I'm ready, but I'm working on it.

 

[GunTech]

I can shoot what I aim at, but haven't had to return fire while being shot at. All bets are off when that happens. I just hope I don't do any worse than to go down shooting.

 

[brownie0486]

Good post Doc,

How many CCW-holders practice on weekly basis? Monthly? Quarterly basis?

I have shot at least 400 rds twice a month for over 20 years. When I'm holding classes, it 1K a week at least in between the above. How many keep that kind of ammo in stock so they can do that? Not many I would guess. Presently sit on 28K of 9mm, 14K of 45, 12K of 22lr, 2400 rds of .38/357, 12K of 7.62x39, 9800 rds of 308 and 4800 rds of 223

I ponder at what distance do most CCW-holders practice for engagement?

From contact to 30 feet in the ITFTS pistol courses. On my own out to 100 yds with pistols at least every other week on the range visits to the desert.

Have you taken and passed a Tactical Shooting course? Have you taken and passed an Advanced Tactical Shooting course?

I have, but I would not expect the majority of ccw holders to have done so.

It seems to me that we assume that all CCW-holders can, could, would be able to do this. But can they?

Not the majority of them IMO from the students I've seen in the courses but that goes back to most ccw holders probably not havng taken training in this venue as well.

I think there is more to consider than simply we should be allowed to carry whenever, and wherever.

I agree, but getting the majority of ccw holders to some level over basic handgun 101 would be a tall order, you'd have to change mindset and they'd have to have the finances and time to do so [ unlikely for most IMO ]

Train as if your life depended on it, it may one day.

Brownie

 

[RioShooter]

I forgot to mention when pistol shooting I alternate between my .38 snubby, 4" .357 magnum, 9mm semi-auto, and a .22 semi-auto. I get a fair amount of "trigger time" but have yet to have any professional training. But I do watch "Personal Defense TV" every Wednesday night.

 

[brownie0486]

have yet to have any professional training.

But I do watch "Personal Defense TV" every Wednesday night.

Brownie

 

[Soybomb]

The very sad fact is, we do not know what outcomes might have changed if CCWs had been allowed in the most recent mall shooting.

We might not know the final outcome but we do know that one of those 8 people who were killed would have at least been given the chance to shoot back and defend their lives instead of being forced to just hope or pray for the best. We need to make people understand that those victims at least deserved the opportunity to try to protect themselves no matter what the outcome would have been.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Every time we read of one of these psycho-shooters, we hear CCW-holders claim the panacea that “…if a CCW had been there…”. For fact, we can point to instances in history where a CCWer did stop a crime. But, in reality, how well-prepared are most CCW-holders?

Of the few videos I have seen of CCW folks or armed clerks shoot in crime situation, many are successful, but you can tell that they have little or no experience with combat-styled shooting. For some, the lack of insight or experience isn't a critical issue, but in some cases, it gets folks killed.

In a lot of cases, I think what gets the good guys who carry is the time delay between seeing/hearing what is going on, comprehending what is going on, then deciding on a course of action. At the Omaha mall, for example, there were people who reported hearing the shots and failed to be able to comprehend that the noises were gun shots and some didn't realize the gun shots were even necessarily real until they either saw injured or wounded people or were wounded themselves. One wounded guy did not realize he was shot until he saw his own blood and then it dawned on him what the gunshot noise was. He was shot from behind, never saw the shooter, and I seem to recall that he was shot in the arm (elbow?).

How many CCW-holders practice on weekly basis? Monthly? Quarterly basis? Do they practice Tactical Shooting? Can they scoot-while-they-shoot? Can they shoot over, under, around cover? Can "cover" and move an unarmed person to safety, and not lose body contact...oh yes...and while they do this, they must hit the target 17 of 17 shots? That is Advanced Tactical Shooting, my friends.

Many CCW folks don't have access to a location where they can even practice combat-type shooting even if they do practice regularly. Not a lot of ranges allow for shooting on the move, drawing from the holster, double taps, rapid fire, using barricades, shooting from varied positions (prone, back, kneeling, standing, etc.), and don't have moving targets. Even those that can scoot and shoot often don't have many opportunities to shoot and scoot where the target is a moving target. And this is just for handguns. Even fewer ranges allow such drills with long guns.

Have you taken and passed a Tactical Shooting course? Have you taken and passed an Advanced Tactical Shooting course?

I have, but I would not expect the majority of ccw holders to have done so.

Ditto

It seems to me that we assume that all CCW-holders can, could, would be able to do this. But can they?

Not the majority of them IMO from the students I've seen in the courses but that goes back to most ccw holders probably not havng taken training in this venue as well.

Ditto

 

[Geno]

My position is that we should be able to CCW 24/7 unrestricted. But, if we are going to do so, we had better step up to the plate regularly in practice so if/when we really have to step-up, we can and we do.

When I took my first Advanced Tactical Shooting course, the instructor's questions were chilling to-the-bone...it was "20-questions" of what will you do?! For example, "You see a woman being beaten, do you stop the attack, or do you mind your own business?"

The instructor's closing words before we teamed up to begin tactical firing was, "If you're not willing to lay your life down, to make this a better, safer society, there's the door!" He was not saying go play cop...quite to the contrary. But he was saying, "If you open fire, count on being shot at, and hit. But you choose to live to the point that you stop the attack. You die last, and if any of the perps live, you make damned sure you have them ‘marked’ for the hospitals and police...who says dead men don't speak...it's called ‘mark’ them. Eventually, they die of infection, or go to the hospital with infection. The cops will match the bullets. Dead men do speak. Choose to live through to finish the job!" The man was seriously hard-core. He was a police sergeant.

In terms of tactics, the hardest part for me was covering someone while moving. Most people become deer-in-headlights...they stop to shoot. You can't stop. You have to keep moving, scanning, covering...and shooting accurately. It's not easy! In between shots, you have to scan...control the tunnel vision. Trust me fellas, I have not even scratched the surface. What I have described in this thread is 10 minutes of a 5-hour course. But if you plan to engage the fight, you better have these down...and more, or hope that you're shooting from serious cover.

The part that scares me...I can't imagine the bullets flying back at me as I launch rounds. And yes, I have looked down more than one firearms barrel pointed intentionally in my direction. Yes, they were loaded. That’ll catch your attention. So, now you know part of why I take my training so seriously.

So, time to lay it down…are you willing to die for my wife?! Are you willing to die for my daughter?! How about for me?! If you are not, why do you have a CCW? If you come up against a perp with a rifle, in a fixed position, and you engage, it'll get ugly. Are you willing? Are you able? Or do you want to live to see tomorrow?

Edit to add: I almost never practice ultra-precision shooting any more. I engage in about 90% point shooting. For your own next trip to the range...take some duct tape. Tape over your pistol's revolver's iron sights. Run your target to 7, then 15 then 25 yards. Point shoot the targets...no sights. Do a magazine of double taps...a magazine of triple taps...and one mag of emptying the magazine as fast as possible, but fully controlled...again, no sights. Mix it up. Practice more, and practice with intent.

DNS said:

Many CCW folks don't have access to a location where they can even practice combat-type shooting even if they do practice regularly. Not a lot of ranges allow for shooting on the move, drawing from the holster, double taps, rapid fire, using barricades, shooting from varied positions (prone, back, kneeling, standing, etc.), and don't have moving targets. Even those that can scoot and shoot often don't have many opportunities to shoot and scoot where the target is a moving target. And this is just for handguns.

I agree. I have to ask permission before doing so, or go to the family farm. But, given that you are correct, how well are they allowing us to become really prepared?

Doc2005

 

[bsf]

How “Prepared” Are You…Really? Not very prepared. On the other hand, I do a fair job remaining aware of what is going on around me and can run from danger like a healthy rabbit that has just had its hiding place disturbed by a fox.

How many ----------------- practice on weekly basis? Not me. Monthly? Yes.

Equally important, I ponder at what distance do most -----------practice for engagement? For me, spitting distance and slightly beyond.

Do they practice Tactical Shooting? I do, only “basic” stuff, though.

Can they scoot-while-they-shoot? As long as I do not have to hit anything.

Can they shoot over, under, around cover? Needs much practice.

Can "cover" and move an unarmed person to safety, and not lose body contact...oh yes...and while they do this, they must hit the target 17 of 17 shots? Probably not.

It seems to me that we assume that all CCW-holders can, could, would be able to do this. But can they? I think “people do not rise to the occasion but are reduced to the level of their training”. This applies to me as I am a “people”.

Have you taken and passed a Tactical Shooting course? With the exception of single day training, not recently.

Have you taken and passed an Advanced Tactical Shooting course? No.

Some additional points that I believe we should ponder include, what if a shooting breaks out at 75 yards, and you have no cover available at a closer range? Are you sufficiently accomplished to engage this bad-guy who has a carbine? Fat chance.

Does our current practice have us prepared for extended-distance engagements? No, and I do not care. If I get the basics down I will worry about more unlikely scenarios. Anyway, I move away from trouble, not towards it.

So, time to lay it down…are you willing to die for my wife?! No.

Are you willing to die for my daughter?! No, but I might be willing to kill someone else to protect your daughter.

How about for me?! No.

If you are not, why do you have a CCW? Who said I did?

If you come up against a perp with a rifle, in a fixed position, and you engage, it'll get ugly. Are you willing? No.

Are you able? In short, probably not.

Or do you want to live to see tomorrow? Sounds like a good plan.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Some additional points that I believe we should ponder include, what if a shooting breaks out at 75 yards, and you have no cover available at a closer range? Are you sufficiently accomplished to engage this bad-guy who has a carbine?

Having a couple home ranges I have the opportunity to not only practice a lot but to practice the "It will never happen stuff".

We all know that we will never have to engage a BG at 100 yards with our carry pistols,
but what if it does happen. Do you know what you can do?

 

[RioShooter]

So, time to lay it down…are you willing to die for my wife?! Are you willing to die for my daughter?! How about for me?! If you are not, why do you have a CCW?

To be blunt, I did not get my CHL to protect others. If I wanted to do that, I would have gone into law enforcement. I got my CHL to protect myself and my family. I have helped many strangers in my lifetime in non-threatening situations. I know I would want to help others in a life-threatening situation. But my ultimate responsiblity is to my family, and I can't take care of them if I'm dead. Maybe that is selfish, but I owe it to my family to come home everyday.

 

[Old Dog]

The very sad fact is, we do not know what outcomes might have changed if CCWs had been allowed in the most recent mall shooting.

I'm guessing that it wouldn't have much changed the outcome. Judging by most posts in this forum, the vast majority hereabouts seem to pack J-frames, Bersa 380s, Kahrs, 1911s or similar handguns ... I highly doubt that the sensible person, already behind the power curve when the shooting by an armed lunatic begins, would draw a handgun to go up against someone using a rifle with perhaps a twenty or thirty round magazine ... Most, I'm sure, would take a defensive position and wait for help (in the form of SWAT, etc.)

Realistically, who trains for a situation such as the event in Omaha? Your one handgun against rifle? When you don't know who is shooting? Where the shooter is? How many shooters there might be?

I guarantee you that almost everyone who's never been in actual combat is gonna have serious difficulty coming up with any sort of plan of action other than to run as fast as they can the other way when they recognize the sound of gunshots in the local mall.

 

[Geno]

Thanks for the posts folks. What I hope to achieve with this thread is to bring about realistic anticipation. If you go to the mall this weekend, take some time to ponder the events past, and play it out in your mind. Take a look at all of the hiding places. Take a look at the distances that engagements could happen, and finally, observe the utter lack of good cover. Malls are built to be wide open ranges in which thousands of people can roam freely spending their money. I personally cannot think of a worse place for an engagement than a mall.

The comments about non-combat experienced people having extreme difficulty I think is spot-on. How many of us have been in combat? Around THR maybe quite a few. I dare venture to say that even most LEOs have not be in combat. But, at least LEOs have a vest, and a longgun.

I am fully aware that my instructors' view of what CCW-holders are expected to do, and expected to be able to do is hard-core to extreme. And even those who have trained under them, and who continue to practice multiple times per week, are very poorly trained to attempt to resolve the conflict that presented in Omaha this week, against someone with a rifle or carbine, especially if in a fixed position.

Perhaps the greatest contribution that I can give in the thread, and many have touched upon it already, is the fact of our mortality. If you engage the fight, count on dodging bullets...real bullets. Count on likely being hit. Too, most people do not die from pistol/revolver bullet strikes...they die from shock. I am concerned that so many people seem to have "Walter Mitty syndrome". I hope that this thread helps to either awaken, or keep alert our sense of realism regarding what we can likely be expected to, or hope to achieve if we ever do have to engage the fight. Instead of the hero's welcome celebration, we might be attending our own wake. Instead of a congratulatory letter to us for heroism, it might be a letter thanking our wife and consoling our children. Instead of us reading a newpaper article with a picture and singing our praises, our family maybe be reading our obituary.

Just sitting here thinking aloud folks, How "Prepared" Are You...Really? Not just training physically...training mentally. Have you anticipated the full extent of what could or would happen? The good guy doesn't always win, or even get praised. Are you prepared for the protracted legal debate and investigation? Are you ready to be arrested, and to have your weapon confiscated for the duration the investigation? My one instructor, a formerly SWAT director for about 27 years is also a lawyer. He says that even a good shoot can cost you $15,000.00 to $20,000.00 to clear you…to protect you. Do you have that set cash set aside? Are you willing to part with that cash?

How "Prepared" Are You...Really? Physically? Mentally? Financially?

Doc2005

 

[crankshop1000]

The real question is- could you give YOURSELF a better chance of surviving an attack on you. CCW really has no intent to allow anyone to defend the masses,only yourself and your family.The responsibility to defend against random shootings like the mall incidents falls on private security and the police.The basic premise that everyone may be a bit safer with a few CCW's walking around is sound.I believe that these shooters are cowards and look for victims that will not give much resistance.In rare instances a highly trained (or lucky) CCW holder may cut an attack short, but I wouldn't count on it.It's the simple fact that a potential victim MAY be armed that is the real deterrent.Until businesses (and governments) get over the self imposed need to be PC,and eliminate the "gun free zones" these shootings will continue.It's time that everybody recognize the fact that CCW's are hard to get and the holder has proven to be responsible with a firearm and his behavior and will be an asset to crime prevention and law enforcement.

 

[Sistema1927]

I do practice at least monthly.

However, no matter how good we are, how prepared, how equipped, etc. bad things can happen and a CCW isn't an automatic panacea for all of the world's ills.

Could a CCW holder have stopped the Omaha shooter? Maybe, but we will never know. Could a CCW holder have become one of his victims even if carrying and trained? Possibly, sometimes you are going to be on the short end of the stick, just like the guy gunned down in Texas while confronting the loonie at the courthouse.

Yet, it is always better to have the option, even if it fails, than to never have the option.

 

[45Badger]

We might not know the final outcome but we do know that one of those 8 people who were killed would have at least been given the chance to shoot back and defend their lives instead of being forced to just hope or pray for the best. We need to make people understand that those victims at least deserved the opportunity to try to protect themselves no matter what the outcome would have been.

I would bet that they didn't/wouldn't have the chance to defend themselves, even if they had a gun. The first few were probably shot before anyone had a clue, add a few more seconds for people to register what was going on, and then a few more to engage brain to get feet moving out of harm's way and you've got a pile of dead and wounded folks.

Assuming I had a gun and was in target zone, the smart play in a multi level mall environment would be to boogie out of the area/around a corner vs. engaging. I would probably focus on the first rule of winning a gun fight- don't get shot.

Most probable way of CCWs ablility to help would be pure happenstance. A civic minded, fearless, and fast CCW holder who happened to be behind shooter when he started might have enough composure to recognize the situation, and stop/kill the bad guy before he finished his evil deeds. Several posts above indicate that at least few wouldn't be up for that.

 

[doc jake]

The major problem for me, if I had a firearm and was in a good position to take a shot, would be identifying the target. For instance you’re out doing some last minute Christmas shopping; you hear multiple shots and screaming. Ten meters to your front is a lone figure taking aim over a guard rail into the lower levels, you have a clear shot. Question, is he a fellow good guy or the deranged killer?
If I do intervene how do other legally armed citizens know I’m not a bad guy?

 

[Geno]

doc jake:

I have the very same fear. How would others know I am a good-guy? And, if I identify myself to others, am I not identifying myself to the bad-guy, and now I am a target. Too, there are many documented cases of off-duty LEOs being shot by fellow LEOs who did not recognize him/her for whatever the reason.

These are all some seriously good answers. Thanks to all who have posted.

Doc2005

 

[sacp81170a]

Ten meters to your front is a lone figure taking aim over a guard rail into the lower levels, you have a clear shot. Question, is he a fellow good guy or the deranged killer?

If he's shooting with a rifle or shotgun, the answer is obvious, that ain't a carry piece he's got there. If it were a handgun? Much tougher question...

That's when you'd have to take cover, challenge him and determine his intentions. No matter what happens, if it's the BG, you've stopped the attack. If it's another good guy, you'll have to determine that quickly. Our SOP for plain clothes officers is that they obey the commands of other officers immediately and without question. Have your creds (badge & ID) in a pocket you can reach with your off hand. Never point your gun or your eyes at the person who is challenging you(if it were a BG, he wouldn't challenge, he'd just shoot). What to do if you're a civilian CCW holder and you get challenged? I'd say follow a similar procedure. Cease firing immediately. Try to tell the person who's challenged you what's happening. If you need to move to take cover, do so in such a way that you don't threaten the person who's challenged you. Other than that, life is risky, do the best you can...

 

[7677]

Doc,
All of the CCW's that I train can do all of the things you mention in your post and more.

To date, there have been two types of defects that are going out with a big bang.

The first type that just snap one day pick up a gun/weapon and start killing and the mall just happens to be a target rich opportunity to spread misery so they stop in for a whole new type of clearance sale.

In the Salt Lake City Mall shooting, a lone police officer prevented the gunman from continuing his rampage. It appears that these lunatics do not like being shot at and attempt to take cover when shot at and every minute these defects are delayed the better chance that police will arrive and take him out without further loss of life.

The VT and Columbine shootings were planned out for some time and in great detail. The nut(s) that did it prepared with training and had the necessary support equipment in place during the attack. However the school resource officer at Columbine kept the two from leaving the school.

The biggest problem with a CCW getting into the fight is how do the LEOs or other CCWs know who is the good guy or who is the nut job. All that is apparent responding officer is that two or more people are shooting it out.

I do not think it takes being in combat to come up with a plan of action. The CCW's plan of action should be to escape and to deal with any threats while egressing the location. If a hostiles are encountered on the way out, the threat should be taken out.

I train regularly for a diverse set of situations, this includes square range, moving and shooting, H2H, and tons of realistic simunition/ role playing training.

 

[DuncanSA]

Lots of grey areas here, but bear in mind that the nut or criminal normally does not expect resistance. Some years ago in South Africa a group of what are now termed "peoples heroes" opened fire with AKs and grenades on a packed church congregation. They killed several people, including some visiting Russian sailors.

ONE man in the congregation, with ONE handgun stood up and returned fire and the terrorists (oops! must be careful about using that word) fled.

My point is that armed good guys may not be the complete answer, but it does mean that the innocent have at least some chance against the predators out there.

There is also a message here about the false security given by "gun free" areas such as hospitals and churches.

 

[strangelittleman]

One must honestly critically assess their own mental, emotional, physical capabilities and plan around one's strengths and weaknesses.
Once one has done the required brutal self assessment and thus ruled out any "Walter Mitty" type fantasies of derring-do foolishness. Get quality training from qualified professionals....after that it's up to you to keep up maintainance training....
Many ranges don't allow CQB/HRP type training. At one's home, if that's the only option one has, SAFELY practice dry firing while, practicing movement to cover, closing with & disengagment from oppo, ECQ, slow deliberate room clearing of one living quarters( ie; becoming intimately familiar with one's house under all levels of visibility/light, both with handheld light & w/o), engagements in/from/around vehicles, rapid exit from vehicles.
All this can be done in the privacy of one's home, away from prying eyes, especially if one has a garage. When practicing the dry firing, time should be set aside for malfunction clearance drills for everything including the dreaded double feed, snapcaps are great for this.
These are minimal requirements that everyone can do to maintain proficiency.

 

[1911 guy]

Me? or the 'Average" guy.

First off, I'm no Rambo, but I've been shot at before and returned the favor. I train fairly regularly with my handgun and I'm very competent with it. It's in my nature to 1) get my family out of danger and 2) assess the situation. If it's a clear situation, maybe I'll step in. If it's not clear, I walk (run) away. Too many variables and bloodthirsty lawyers to make a shoot and wind up in court for the next several years. See Rule Number One above. Me rotting in jail does nothing for them.

The Average Joe? Abysmal. This forum is a collection of folks with a higher percentage of "above average" than, well, average. The average CCW gets the smallest gun he can, never shoots it because recoil is an absolute b****, thinks you're a "survivalist nut" for doing more than minimal training, thinks anything other than his Pappies bolt action is an "assault rifle" and won't cut back one pack of smokes a week to keep up his shooting, when he does shoot. I've had some on this forum deride me for going through several thousand rounds in a very short period of time and expecting my pistol to keep up. "Well, my CCW only has to get through the two mags I carry" says they. ***?

The average CCW holder would be an abysmal failure under pressure. Those we hear of stopping the attacker and not getting dead themselves are not the norm. Few take their sidearm seriously. Even fewer are proficient. Fewer still have the training to use that proficiency. If you're an adult and choose not to take care of yourself, good luck to you. Your only hope of aid from me is if you're a minor or impaired. I feel no need to defend the able bodied. Do it yourself.

 

[revjen45]

I don't shoot that often, but do OK when I do. In the NRA BPOTH course I put every round in the 5 zone over 2 days, except for a few head shots, and those were hits- just not 5s. A carry gun is like a spare tire- you take hoping you won't need it.