How accurate should a CCW handgun be?

[Katana8869]

What are your requirements for accuracy in a CCW handgun? Or more to the point how accuratly should a CCW holder be able to shoot their choosen firearms? With any of my carry pistols or revolvers, shooting rapid fire, I can keep all of my rounds in a 6" circle at 7 yards. I think that the old 5 shots in 5 seconds within a 5" circle at 5 yards theory is a good benchmark for any CCW handgun, and I look for guns that allow me to do so consistantly. I want to stay within 7" shooting rapid fire at 15 yards. What does everyone else think?

Are you looking for pinpoint accuracy or just minute of badguy performance? Let's face it, there often is a good amount of difference between how the average shooter groups with a customized 1911 vs how they may group with a 2" snubby or a micro sized .380.

I'd be interested to see what opinions are on this subject.

 

[dovedescending]

As accurate as you can be with that particular weapon. If you've attained 7" at 15 yards, good for you. Now step back 5 yards and keep practicing I think my requirements for performance will always be "Better than I shoot now".

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Katana8869: What are your requirements for accuracy in a CCW handgun? Or more to the point how accuratly should a CCW holder be able to shoot their choosen firearms? With any of my carry pistols or revolvers, shooting rapid fire, I can keep all of my rounds in a 6" circle at 7 yards. I think that the old 5 shots in 5 seconds within a 5" circle at 5 yards theory is a good benchmark for any CCW handgun, and I look for guns that allow me to do so consistantly. I want to stay within 7" shooting rapid fire at 15 yards. What does everyone else think?

Until earlier this year, I held similar opinions.

In May, I took a nine hour high performance defensive pistol course. After one series of shots at targets for grouping, they dispensed entirely with paper targets and went to torso-sized steel plates. Any audible hit was a hit.

After a fair amount of one-on-one instructions on the fundamental--stance, grip, sight picture, and trigger control--we fired two shots at each of three targets from left to right, reloaded, and repeated the drill shooting from right to left. The use of three targets provided skill development for shooting at a a moving target or at multiple assailants.

Again, a hit was a hit. The instructors could complete the cycle in less than four and quarter seconds. That's for twelve hits and changing the magazine. The reason for the magazine change was to develop the skill to do so very quickly in the event of a malfunction.

Are you looking for pinpoint accuracy or just minute of badguy performance?

Well, you are looking for the accuracy and speed necessary to stop an assailant before he harms you. That's probably two or more hits in a very small fraction of a second after taking about a second and a half to draw.

Let's face it, there often is a good amount of difference between how the average shooter groups with a customized 1911 vs how they may group with a 2" snubby or a micro sized .380.

Two things.

First, how one "groups" was not a measure of merit in the training, and it shouldn't be. Speed, hit probability, avoiding wild shots that endanger others--those are the important things. A perp is not a paper target. For the first time, I understood why my CCW instructor, who is an accomplished target shooter, strongly advised using a blank piece of 8.5X11 paper for practice at seven yards.

Second, when I signed up for the course, the instructors recommended bringing service-sized semi-automatics, even though one of the leaders is a revolver aficionado.

I was able to get by with a four-inch 1911 with an Officer frame. The guys and gals with bigger guns did better.

Personally, I would not rely on a snubby or a micro .380 for personal defense unless I just could not conceal something larger. The limited capacity, short sight radius, and small grip just do not cut it for me.

Again, I do not consider group size, or strive for it, in practice for SD shooting. For targets, it's fun, but not all that useful.

I suggest your taking such a course. It was a real eye-opener.

 

[dovedescending]

Out of curiosity, Kleanbore, which course did you take?

 

[BlayGlock]

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/

great article by a man who would know.

Important part:

Based on this and years of experience I have concluded that a service pistol should be capable of head shots at 25 yds and a service carbine should be capable of the same at 100 yds – basically 5 inch groups. However there is a catch; I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that. That means in order to achieve my standard of head shots (5 inch groups) at a given distance the weapon/ammo combination needs to be capable of at least 2.5 inch groups. I personally measure that accuracy standard with 10 shot groups. Many quality service pistols and carbines with good ammo will achieve this but there are many other factors involved such as sights and trigger pull characteristics. By these criteria it is not hard to see why a tuned 1911 pistol is so popular in selected spec ops units.

Personally I have started doing all my ccw training using 3X5 inch index cards and I practice drawing and placing two shots into that card in under 3 seconds. I currently practice out to 10 yards and when I get better I will move back and maybe add an a liittle extra time.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by dovedescending: Out of curiosity, Kleanbore, which course did you take?

I took the first of two courses ("High Performance Pistol") from the Tactical Defensive Shooting Association (TDSA)-Midwest. The second course ("Dynamic Pistol"), which I did not take, involves shooting while running in different directions, standing on something like a supension bridge, etc. They also offer tactical rifle training.

The instructors are ranked competitors, and they said that the techniques (grip, stance, etc.) that they teach are used by the top one hundred or so competitors in the country.

Whenever someone was shooting, he or she had an instructor at his side, and they changed instructors after each drill so that one received the benefit of multiple evaluations and teaching techniques.

When I was there, students included persons taking the course for a second time and both police officers and people interested in or accomplished in competition.

By the way, at the end of the day, they had everyone try his hand at shooting a magazine load of aimed shots at a steel torso target at fifty yards, just for the novelty.

One local police officer, who was among the top two in performance during the day (the other being a guy from the Texas TDSA with a lot of award emblems on his hat) using his striker fired .40 Cal. service pistol, hit the thing thirteen times in a row, two handed, strong handed, and weak handed, missing once only when trying a weak hand shot with the pistol upside down!

http://www.fastshooting.com/

 

[M-Cameron]

for most practical applications.....

ide say if you can routinely hit a paper plate at 30 feet its accurate enough for CCW.....

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by M-Cameron: for most practical applications.....

ide say if you can routinely hit a paper plate at 30 feet its accurate enough for CCW.....

Sounds reasonable to me at first blush---but there's the little matter of speed, and the question of what kind of accuracy and speed performance is necessary at shorter distances.

There was an article in today's paper in St. Louis about the passing of a man who was shot earlier this month by two armed robbers who accosted him as he left his house.

The victim drew and fired; whether he wounded either man has not been reported, but if he did not, it was likely more a matter of insufficient speed from signal to shots fired than one of inaccuracy.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_dcff5966-e1cd-11df-bc98-00127992bc8b.html

In another string here in S&T, there has been a discussion of the shooting of an armed robber by a police officer in NYC. She missed once and hit once at twelve feet, but since the suspect was already firing at her, the important factor was speed.

She hit the perp's gun--possibly within the area of center mass.

Most police officers I know personally can do one heck of a lot better than hitting a paper plate at thirty feet when they are at the range, and some even insist that that's not good enough for civilians because of the risk of hitting an innocent.

I don't know how accurately any of them could shoot if they were being shot at. Hit statistics in real world police encounters are rarely as high as 50% of shots fired, and 15% is more the norm.

Firing very fast (perhaps about three shots per second--can't remember) in the training class I mentioned above, I hit the COM targets eleven times out of twelve at seven yards--but I was not being shot at.

 

[Hk Dan]

You need to be able to achieve combat accurate hits as quickly as they are needed. Combat accurate is defined as any hit that significantly effects the threats ability to do you harm.

Yes, that's a nebulous answer, but it's the best one I can give. I don't have a standard for accuracy, I know my guns will out shoot me in a stressful situation. So, the questionisn't how accurate your gun should be, but how much training and practice you need to be good with it.

Does that make sense?
Dan

 

[Sam1911]

Dan and Kleanbore raise a point that I think could be summed up this way: All common service and defensive sidearms are accurate enough for self-defense carry. The differences in mechanical accuracy between a Glock, and a Sig and (most) 1911s, and an old style S&W auto, and a Beretta 92s, and a Khar, and a Ruger GP100, and a HiPoint, and a High Power etc., etc. are not large enough to be a legitimate cause to reject one or favor one for carry. I'd wager the great majority of us could pick up any of those and put most of a mag full into a 4" group at 15 yds. or so, given a well lit range and all the time we need.

The question is, have you practiced with whichever one you choose to carry enough that you can make center-of-mass hits, on multiple targets, while retreating to cover, in the very few seconds that most gun fights really span?

And that's not the only important question...

Which gun is comfortable and concealable enough that you'll actually carry it all the time?

And what method of carry will you really be using? Do you practice drawing and engaging a threat with that style of holster/carry?

And what do you do to prepare yourself to identify and immediately engage a threat when/if one really does present itself?

And do you have other "tools in the toolbox" or are you counting on that gun to solve all your problems?

And so on.

 

[bigfatdave]

Sam reinforces and raises a lot of good points.

All I can add in is that your skills on the range on a nice day with no stress and with the gun on a bench neatly set next to a box of ammo ... all of that is fun for range shooting, but has little to do with defensive accuracy.

If your range won't let you blast away at 5 yards rapid-fire, get a better range.
If you can't find a better range, at least do some draw and fire drills at home with snap-caps.
Get a shooting partner to cue you, you'll get a better idea of how fast you can draw and aim when surprised. Even better if your buddy can cue you on one of three targets to hit.

Be safe and know your weapon/skills level ... but get in some realistic training, casual shooting on the range will only take you so far for defensive skills.

 

[OregonJohnny]

Regarding the "5 shots, 5 seconds, 5 inches at 5 yards" exercise, I think it's reasonable, and pretty good practice, but it's also flawed. First of all, if your first shot occurs on "GO!", with your gun raised, sights on target, finger on trigger, then the other 4 shots within 5 seconds can come pretty slowly. Getting off the remaining 4 well-aimed shots in 5 seconds shouldn't be that hard.

However, if "GO!" occurs when your weapon is holstered, hands off the grip, your heart rate is elevated from a quick series of exercises, and you have to move while shooting - well then, now we're talking.

Of course none of this has anything to do with the accuracy of the firearm itself, rather the training and control of the shooter. Still, doing this exercise with a finely-tuned 1911 would probably produce better results across the board for all shooters when compared to trying it with, say, a S&W 642.

When practicing with my carry weapons, if one particular gun isn't acting very accurate, I know that I just have to make adjustments and concentrate in order to tighten up groups. Except in extreme cases, accuracy, or lack thereof, is 1 thing that is hard to attribute to the firearm itself.

In the list of important attributes that my CCW must possess, "pin-point" accuracy is not near the top of the list.

 

[mgkdrgn]

95%+ of SD shootings take place at 10 feet, or less.

If you shoot someone 10+ yards away, and claim "self defense", you had better have a very good story, and an even better lawyer.

Just about any modern handgun is likely to be several orders of magnitude =more= accurate than the person shooting it in an SD situation, for a whole host of reasons.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

If you shoot someone 10+ yards away, and claim "self defense", you had better have a very good story, and an even better lawyer.

So I guess shooting a gun-wielding maniac going on a shooting spree at more than 10 feet = your a murderer.

 

[M-Cameron]

So I guess shooting a gun-wielding maniac going on a shooting spree at more than 10 feet = your a murderer.

ide imagine that would fall into the <5% of SD shootings...........

 

[Deaf Smith]

What are your requirements for accuracy in a CCW handgun? Or more to the point how accuratly should a CCW holder be able to shoot their choosen firearms?

Accuracy is more than just what the gun will do by itself (intrinsic accuracy.)

How the shooter shoots the gun is a huge part. And just what amount of precision needed for the shot plays a part. Plus the target, or shooter, may be moving!

As long as reliability is not compromised, one looks to find the weapon they can shoot with the most accuracy, firing fast, as they can, and still have enough power to stop their attacker.

Deaf

 

[DonRon]

When adrenaline gets flowing all that muscle memory and training won't even cross your mind. You want something you can point and shoot quickly. Glock, Kahr or a good revolver. Don't even go there with sights either because you will never see or use them. Push back with the weak hand, draw push forward and fire in the plane of your belt and keep shooting as you come up backing away from the aggressor.

 

[9mmepiphany]

When adrenaline gets flowing all that muscle memory and training won't even cross your mind. You want something you can point and shoot quickly. Glock, Kahr or a good revolver. Don't even go there with sights either because you will never see or use them. Push back with the weak hand, draw push forward and fire in the plane of your belt and keep shooting as you come up backing away from the aggressor.

I find this advice interesting.

Might I ask how you've come to this opinion?

Is this from personal experience in either a shooting situation or competition?

Was this taught at some reputable shooting school?

Was this from extensive interviews of survivors of shooting engagements that you have compiled data from?

I'm not familiar with any school that teaches point shooting, except as an adjunct to aimed fire...and surely not from the belt level, except when shooting from retention

 

[9mmepiphany]

I personally require that any gun I carry be able to hold a 4" group at 50 yards in slow fire.

My goal when teaching is that the student be able to place 5 rounds in an 6" circle (inner surface of an 8" plate" at 5-7 yards, when drawing from a holster in response to a signal in < 2.5 seconds...we're shooting at a rate of about 4 shots per second.

Shooting 5 rounds in 5 seconds at 5 yards...I'd expect all the shots to be atop each other, surely within an inch.

 

[David E]

What are your requirements for accuracy in a CCW handgun? Or more to the point how accurately should a CCW holder be able to shoot their choosen firearms?

These are two different questions. The gun should be as accurate as possible without compromising reliability.

The shooter should choose a gun that he can shoot well under pressure. For instance, be able to hit a sheet of typing paper at 15 yds with no more than one second between shots for a minimum standard.

A gun that's capable of 1" groups from a vise, but has a 27# trigger pull won't be very accurate at all in the hands of the shooter.

With any of my carry pistols or revolvers, shooting rapid fire, I can keep all of my rounds in a 6" circle at 7 yards.

This always comes up, the term "rapid fire." It means very different things to different people. What is your interpretation?

I think that the old 5 shots in 5 seconds within a 5" circle at 5 yards theory is a good benchmark for any CCW handgun

I think it's horrible. It's misleading, as it's not very difficult to do. So if you can surpass that low level skill, the shooter thinks he's way ahead of the curve. If you want to utilize that "standard" as the lowest possible skill level one should have before carrying a gun, ok, but it's not worth any more than that.

 

[DonRon]

I find this advice interesting.

Might I ask how you've come to this opinion?

Is this from personal experience in either a shooting situation or competition?

Was this taught at some reputable shooting school?

Was this from extensive interviews of survivors of shooting engagements that you have compiled data from?

I'm not familiar with any school that teaches point shooting, except as an adjunct to aimed fire...and surely not from the belt level, except when shooting from retention

Personal shooting experience from being a LEO and then seeing it done by another LEO when an armed suspect exited a vehicle at him. This one was also on TV when Pigeon Forge TN Officer Trinty Brown had to shot to kill to save his hide and his partners.

Slow fire practice is all well and good. In the real world the bad guys don't stick to any rules.

 

[David E]

Jim Cirillo would be alarmed to learn that he did it wrong........

 

[DonRon]

I find this advice interesting.

Might I ask how you've come to this opinion?

Is this from personal experience in either a shooting situation or competition?

Was this taught at some reputable shooting school?

Was this from extensive interviews of survivors of shooting engagements that you have compiled data from?

I'm not familiar with any school that teaches point shooting, except as an adjunct to aimed fire...and surely not from the belt level, except when shooting from retention

Here is another example of Point and Shoot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1evT61Qp_Q

 

[DonRon]

Here is another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdDEharvp0U&feature=related

 

[DonRon]

Here is another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G8V0uUl208&feature=related