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How Can One Get a New Machine Gun?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by ConservativeMetalhead, Jun 10, 2010.

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  1. ConservativeMetalhead

    ConservativeMetalhead Member

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    OK, so I know I asked a question earlier if the Hughes Amendment would be repealed so don't bite my head off. I'm fairly new to guns so forgive me for asking a simple question, but I'd like to know how one can get a MG made AFTER 1986. I think I heard something about a level 3 Dealer's Licenses? I donno.

    Side Question: Will MG after 1986 EVER be legalized?

    Thanks,



    ~Gramm
     
  2. pikid89

    pikid89 Member

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    join the army
     
  3. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    Move to Switzerland.


    Seriously, there isn't any way to get a NIB full auto gun in the US, unless your the Gov. At least there's no way I know of. If it's full auto it had to be registered before 1986, nothing has been allowed to be registered since, new or old.

    Very, very doubtful.


    EDIT:
    Come to think of it, unless I'm mistaken you can get a manufactures license of some type that would allow you to manufacture full auto weapons for sale to Military and police. I'm betting those are few and far between.

    I still say there should be a Sticky on this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  4. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    If you were to become a Federal Firearms License holder (gun dealer or professional gunsmith) and then become a Special Occupational Taxpayer, Class 03 (dealer) or Class 02 (manufacturer) you could get your hands on some. Maybe. These would be "Post '86 Dealer Samples." As an 03 Dealer you can only get these with a letter from a law-enforcement agency looking to buy one. (Good luck with that. Most PDs don't see a realistic need for such, don't have much cash, and can get M16s from the federal government for like $25 each or whatever so ... yeah, good luck with that.)

    As an 02 Manufacturer you can make your own new MGs for testing and sales samples purposes.

    Getting your FFL and paying the taxes (along with rather a lot else) is for someone who will make a profession of the gun dealing business. It is not a route for a hobbiest/enthusiast to play with cool guns.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  5. mrnkc130

    mrnkc130 Member

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    become a dealer or a manufacturer and pay applicable SOT taxes.

    My dealer is a regular guy living in a regular house down the road from me, except he has a HK g36! And many others...
     
  6. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I purchased a NIB MG last year...but it was made in '76.

    Thats it.
     
  7. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    This question can be better answered depending on the USSC's decision in the McDonald case (due by 6/28/10), and on the outcome of the Heller II case (which will be a few more years).

    While I have an 07 FFL / C2 SOT it's not really an inexpensive way, in either money or time, to procure post-86 machine guns.
     
  8. ConservativeMetalhead

    ConservativeMetalhead Member

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    @DeepSouth: Move to SWITZERLAND? I though European Countries had HIGH gun control.

    @Bubbles: Can I watch the McDonald Case and Heller II case on TV?
     
  9. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    With the McDonald case everything is done except for the release of the USSC's decision, which will occur on or before 06/28/10 as that is the last date of the session.

    Heller II is being appealed, and I don't know how much, if any, of it will be televised.
     
  10. aggiez28

    aggiez28 Member

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    actually there are MANY MANY hobbiest/enthusiast that have small firearms businesses with FFLs/SOTs. they get to have the cool toys and make a few bucks at the same time.

    you have to be in the firearms business to be legal, you dont have to have a big business.
     
  11. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Just another thing for me to do after I win the lottery.
     
  12. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Good to hear. Please explain for us how the costs and work break down for an "average joe" looking to get into the FFL/SOT2 route. I know that could mean a lot of things depending on where you are, but just do it for your area. I mean, if you've got $10,000 or so to spend on the business stuff (not on guns & ammo) is this workable?

    What would it cost in your state/city to establish a business (license, zoning, insurance, etc.), obtain your FFL, become an SOT 02 (or 03), pay all necessary federal, state, etc. taxes, etc. to do this legally? An idea of start up capital needed, as well as an estimate of recurring yearly fees would be very helpful.

    Then what are the duties, responsibilities, and liabilities, etc. that the new FFL/SOT has to be aware of and on top of? Some of us forget to mail the cable bill...hate to think that there could be larger repercussions for simple absentmindedness as regards your hobby business!

    It may be that the persistent claims that this is not a reasonable way to enjoy an extensive personal collection of Title II toys are just another internet myth. Enlighten us!
     
  13. PTK

    PTK Member

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    Sam,

    Holding a 02/07 manufacturing FFL/SOT isn't much different than holding a C&R, except instead of JUST doing transfers for yourself, you MUST also do things for others in seeking profit. It's really not too bad.

    Now, liability - yeah, that's a huge issue. Workload? Nah, it's fine.


    Bottom line, though - if you want a manufacturing license just to play with machineguns, you're going to get caught, and you WILL spend time in jail for tax evasion. Period. If you're a manufacturer, you MUST be in the business of doing R&D, or transfers for people, or SOMETHING in the interest of profit regarding the license. PERIOD.
     
  14. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    In what ways is it the same, and how is it different? I'd very much like to see the costs broken out like I mentioned before.

    Do you need a legal (properly zoned, adequate parking, etc.) place of business? Do you need a business license? Do you need insurance? Do you need to pay ITAR as well as the other yearly taxes? How much do these things cost?

    What kind of "huge issue" is liability insurance?

    Who will be checking your tax records to prove that you're "in the business of?" And what satisfies them that you are?

    Again, "if you've got $10,000 or so to spend on the business stuff (not on guns & ammo) is this workable?"

    How do the penalties stack up for minor mistakes with records keeping & such compared to the level of commitment most of us gun-hobbyists dedicate to such things?

    And how is this different for an SOT03?

    None of this is to be argumentative. I'm very curious. However, I've read a LOT of descriptions of how things are not (or are no longer) favorable for the hobbyist and very few that claim that the "fun" is worth the work -- absent a desire to make a career out of it.
     
  15. GoingQuiet

    GoingQuiet Member

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    Short version: Find dealer that has NIB Transferable machine gun for sale that has never been fired (They're out there!)

    Pay appropriately.
     
  16. GoingQuiet

    GoingQuiet Member

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    Sam, here's what I went through. The FFL application CLEARLY says - are you in business to make money? If no, stop application. Are you becoming a licensee to improve a private collection? If yes, stop application.

    The FFL is not a hobbyist license. It is a license for a business. As others have said you can have a small business with selective customers but it has to be a business.

    Zoning is dependent on locality. I know 07 gunsmith's zoned in their house. They got a variance from the zoning board or they are zoned agricultural or other category that lets them conduct business. My zoning is commercial, but that's not a requirement.

    You need a business license. In FL, if you sell used merchandise you are required to register as a secondhand dealer. Also, the city fire department will make sure you have the appropriate fire prevention equipment.

    Insurance is optional. Good idea, but not required to be an FFL.

    ITAR goes to the state department for firearm manufacturers. It's around $2250 if I recall.

    Insurance is difficult. I called 20 insurance brokers. One called me back and gave me coverage with the stipulation that 15% MAX of my sales are firearm related. I did not clal him back.

    Tax records? ATF looks at your business and only ATF. The investigators that visited me are more accountant and compliance oriented rather than heavy handed jack booted thugs the internet loves to preach about. I have nothing bad to say about ATF, all my interactions have been friendly, professional and pretty clear cut.

    To clear up a few things that I've learned since becoming an FFL.

    Myth #1 - ATF requires you to have an alarm.

    False. ATF is looking at zoning and compliance with local laws.

    Myth #2 - ATF requires you to have a safe

    See above

    Myth #3 - ATF requires you to have bars on your doors.

    See above.

    Myth #4 - ATF can come to your house and kick the door down with a no knock warrant anytime they want whenever they damn well please and you waive your right to privacy by becoming an FFL.

    Some FFL's are licensed in their house. I know of one gunsmith who when getting his annual inspection had the inspector say "Where is this integrally suppressed 22?" He said: Give me a minute to get it, it's in my sons room.

    My business is zoned commercial. I may store firearms anywhere I please so long as my records are reflective of where they are kept. For instance, if I have a storage unit at Joes Mini Storage - I note that AR15 serial # ABC1 is located at Joes Mini Storage. If I need to take something to the range for testing, I note that. If I say, stored in my home garage hanging upside down covered in cosmoline and ATF wants to come by and look at it, I am required to comply with their request and bring them to my house and show them that firearm. Noncompliance from what I understand is automatic license revocation.

    Hope this info helped.


     
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Thanks GQ! That's some of the kind of information I hoped to get.

    Obviously, if someone wants to go this route badly enough, it is eminently possible. But it is important that folks who want to start down this path have a clear view of what a commitment it represents.

    On the one hand, no one would choose to devote so much effort and expense to becoming an FFL and SOT payer if they weren't huge Title II weapons enthusiasts. (Well, aside from the vast wealth such a career path brings! ;)) On the other hand, only a very small percentage of folks who are Title II weapons enthusiasts (to whatever degree) are willing to make the commitments to be one.
     
  18. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    I guess an option no one's mentioned yet is buying a small island, declaring it a sovreign nation, and then importing machine guns? I think you'd have to transport the guns there via a private plane, though, with the really ridiculous laws on what you can have on a boat.
     
  19. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    I had heard that the ATF was working to crack down on "kitchen table dealers" who mainly had their SOT for personal collection reasons, based out of their house and not really making any money at it, but don't know if that's true or not. It sounds like from Going Quiet's first paragraph it's at least a concern of theirs.
     
  20. GoingQuiet

    GoingQuiet Member

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    Drew, I know a few kitchen table dealers but that may be a function of them actually being able to run a commercial business from their house. Some localities allow it, some do not. Also of concern: Homeowners associations. If you have an HOA or Condo Board, you may have bought into an area that expressly prohibits any business activity. Thats where you get a few sticking points as well.
     
  21. GoingQuiet

    GoingQuiet Member

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    Sam, when I got my license I knew I had to do paperwork but after my first week of being a bona fide FFL, I signed my name so many times I could have sworn I bought a house.
     
  22. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    Its true.

    But I found a loophole.

    I no longer sell complete kitchen tables. I only sell plans and kits. When shipping interstate, I ship the legs and the tops in separate containers. I also include an insert with the tops, in 40-point boldface font, that the tops are for REPAIR AND REPLACEMENT ONLY, and are not to be used to assemble newly-manufactured tables.

    I keep my mailbox at a UPS store under a pseudonym.
     
  23. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    LOL! Well if you have some registered drop in auto hinges it could be used to assemble a newer table.
     
  24. mtclimber

    mtclimber Member

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    @ ConservativeMetalhead "@DeepSouth: Move to SWITZERLAND? I though European Countries had HIGH gun control."
    Switzerland may be a unique situation, the Swiss Army is a government organized militia, all (as far as I understand) Swiss Males are required to go through military training, at age 20 I believe, and they are issued full auto SIG 550's that they must keep at home. Once there term of service is up they can keep the gun, but it is sent back to Sig and the full auto capability is removed. Switzerland has one of the highest per capita rates of gun ownership in the world.
     
  25. berrieberrie

    berrieberrie Member

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    You thought wrong. This once again shows that "Europe" still (praise the Lord) isn't ONE singular country, and that the huge differences between countries are relatively unknown to US gun enthusiasts.

    Apart from Switzerland, FAs are legal in the Czech Republic (which is even a better place for gun ownership than Switzerland) and Finland.
     
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