OP
OP
NIGHTLORD40K
Contributing Member
.380-381"
How concerned should I be?
- Thread starter NIGHTLORD40K
- Start date
I know nothing about the Rossi carbine, but here are the SAAMI specs for the cartridge:
https://i0.wp.com/www.theballistica...uploads/2021/01/357-Magnum.jpg?resize=525,676
Chambers must be made larger to insure function, and the spec set by the manufacturer must balance accuracy (tight chamber) with ease and reliability of feed and extraction (generous chamber). Tooling wears, so chambers will vary within a specific range set by the manufacturer. The question boils down to tolerances, Rossi's and yours. I do not know if SAAMI dictates chamber dimensions directly, but a commercial offering had better be able to accept and fire the standard cartridge without injury.
I suspect that reliability is job 1. It is likely that the gun will be returned to the mother ship if it does not feed and extract/eject reliably. Accuracy would be of secondary importance, although reports of disappointing accuracy would be marketing headwinds. Those issues are more likely to cause the gun to be sold off, which has a reduced impact on the producer's profit. Effect on reloading has little relevance to manufacturers, most of whom caution to use only factory new ammunition in their little darlings.
The OP brings up one of the quirks of the modern gun trade. Rarely do we have the opportunity to fire a gun before acquiring. We buy not only a bit of manipulated metal and polymer or wood, but also the reputation of the maker. Some makers offer no written warranty. This does not mean it is without what the law calls implied warranty, and usually the issue is mooted by outstanding customer service, but in the final analysis our guns are only as good as the manufacturer that makes/remakes them.
https://i0.wp.com/www.theballistica...uploads/2021/01/357-Magnum.jpg?resize=525,676
Chambers must be made larger to insure function, and the spec set by the manufacturer must balance accuracy (tight chamber) with ease and reliability of feed and extraction (generous chamber). Tooling wears, so chambers will vary within a specific range set by the manufacturer. The question boils down to tolerances, Rossi's and yours. I do not know if SAAMI dictates chamber dimensions directly, but a commercial offering had better be able to accept and fire the standard cartridge without injury.
I suspect that reliability is job 1. It is likely that the gun will be returned to the mother ship if it does not feed and extract/eject reliably. Accuracy would be of secondary importance, although reports of disappointing accuracy would be marketing headwinds. Those issues are more likely to cause the gun to be sold off, which has a reduced impact on the producer's profit. Effect on reloading has little relevance to manufacturers, most of whom caution to use only factory new ammunition in their little darlings.
The OP brings up one of the quirks of the modern gun trade. Rarely do we have the opportunity to fire a gun before acquiring. We buy not only a bit of manipulated metal and polymer or wood, but also the reputation of the maker. Some makers offer no written warranty. This does not mean it is without what the law calls implied warranty, and usually the issue is mooted by outstanding customer service, but in the final analysis our guns are only as good as the manufacturer that makes/remakes them.
Take a look at the SAAMI spec for 357 here:
** There' is nothing wrong with your rifle **.
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My Henry BBS will feed a SWC but sometimes it requires you to let off on the lever a bit and then finish the stroke to feed a round. You can feel it catch on the lip where conical part of the bullet ends. This is why I prefer Round Flat nose or Truncated Cone style bullets.
OP
OP
NIGHTLORD40K
Contributing Member
To be fair, I've never used them. But they (Braztech, includes Taurus and, now, Heritage), have one of the worst online reputations.
I like the gun, but not enough to bother with all that.
At this point, , I'm thinking its safe (enough), it shoots well, and I don't reload, so Im going to try and not worry about it.
The only cure for this particular anxiety will be to shoot it a lot. Oh drats, that's terrible!
230RN
...but they're SUPPOSED to be "military-style."
"I had considered that, although I didn't see any visible evidence of a past blowout."
P=0.632 was a probability estimate, not a prediction. (Roughly, "I'll put my $8 against your $5.")
At root, it seems there is an incompatibility between the feeding system of that gun and the shape of that particular cartridge. This incompatibility was quite possibly resolved by the expedient of the factory opening the chamber dimensions to allow proper feeding, or a later owner did the same thing.
One should not have consistent excessive expansion marks on cases which are supposed to be used in such a chamber. See "Incipient Rupture," p 393, "Nomencature of Cartridge Defects," Hatcher's Notebook.
This is called a "design defect," The feeding mechanism of that gun was not designed for that cartridge.
Period.
Another term for it is "kludge."
Incidentally, calling a manufacturer about a problem with their product will result in blandishments up the yin-yang and no genuine information.
Terry, 230RN
-----------------
REF:
kludge
/kloo͞j/
noun
...A system <...> that is constituted of poorly matched elements or of elements originally intended for other applications.
...A clumsy or inelegant solution to a problem.
...An improvised device, usually crudely constructed. Typically used to test the validity of a principle before doing a finished design.
P=0.632 was a probability estimate, not a prediction. (Roughly, "I'll put my $8 against your $5.")
At root, it seems there is an incompatibility between the feeding system of that gun and the shape of that particular cartridge. This incompatibility was quite possibly resolved by the expedient of the factory opening the chamber dimensions to allow proper feeding, or a later owner did the same thing.
One should not have consistent excessive expansion marks on cases which are supposed to be used in such a chamber. See "Incipient Rupture," p 393, "Nomencature of Cartridge Defects," Hatcher's Notebook.
This is called a "design defect," The feeding mechanism of that gun was not designed for that cartridge.
Period.
Another term for it is "kludge."
Incidentally, calling a manufacturer about a problem with their product will result in blandishments up the yin-yang and no genuine information.
Terry, 230RN
-----------------
REF:
kludge
/kloo͞j/
noun
...A system <...> that is constituted of poorly matched elements or of elements originally intended for other applications.
...A clumsy or inelegant solution to a problem.
...An improvised device, usually crudely constructed. Typically used to test the validity of a principle before doing a finished design.
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lysanderxiii
Member
Nature Boy
Member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2015
- Messages
- 8,552
What does unfired brass measure at the area in question?
Jim Watson
Member
The interesting thing about the SAAMI spec is that the chamber is given as .380"
with tolerance "all diameters +.004""
Right. The cartridge spec is .379" with tolerance "body diameter -.006""
So a small end case in a large end chamber is going to look pretty bulgy.
with tolerance "all diameters +.004""
Right. The cartridge spec is .379" with tolerance "body diameter -.006""
So a small end case in a large end chamber is going to look pretty bulgy.
OP
OP
NIGHTLORD40K
Contributing Member
OP
OP
NIGHTLORD40K
Contributing Member
Except that the chamber throat is closer to minimum and it tapers to close to max at the mouth. Hard to say if that was intentional to assist feeding, or just sloppy machining, but either way, I think it's probably fine safety-wise.
I was actually pleasantly surprised with its feeding performance, especially with .38s. Going to try some 125 and 158gr. Specials next time, hopefully find a plinking load it likes.
dagger dog
Member
Rossi knows about their sloppy fitting problem and refuses to change the process to give the buyer his money's worth, I knew with my purchase it was a crap shoot going in and I crapped out. May try to sell mine to someone who doesn't reload and use the bucks to upgrade.
OP
OP
NIGHTLORD40K
Contributing Member
Aside from mangled brass, how does it shoot?
I have 2 Rossi 92's both in 357 and both of mine have displayed bulged cases after firing. One of my rifles is new production stainless, the other and older blued one. Both are accurate with 357's, there are many threads online about the bulging cases.
My 44 Magnum R92 will show a very, very slight bulge on the side of the case that indexes to the top of the chamber on full power magnum loads. The slight bulge is minimal and I have seen worse on other rifles including several Henry types. I think it normal and intentional to feed the fat cases smoothly. I do reload and have reloaded some of these case now several times with no issue. The rifle is as accurate as would be expected for a short, light lever gun with open sights that kicks like a mule.
dagger dog
Member
Shooting at a 4" swinger off hand at about 40 yrds no problem put all ten in, I bought the rifle for deer hunting because Indiana is a shotgun only, but allows certain handgun cartridges, bought a marbles tang-peep sight and am in the process of using it for longer range, maybe out to 100 yrds, plan on pumping up my Unique load to 10 grs with a 255 gr CSWC, but I'm going to tie the rifle down and shoot 4-5 shots before I trust it won't rupture the case !
Skylerbone
Member
For another data point my fired .357 brass measured .378 uniformly over 10 random cases and .374 near the web (just measured). All of it shot from a Henry, all of it reloaded 3x since new. It doesn’t appear your Rossi is too far off from ideal, certainly not so far as to be a safety concern but I would be curious as to how the used brass resizes since owning a lever makes for some fun possibilities in loading that your future self might one day ponder.
.45Coltguy
Member
Hmm. My .357 cases measure the same as MEHavey's[Starline also]. But, here was a bit of a surprise; My .45 Colt brass measured .478". Fired or re-sized!
Well, now! BTW, both fired from Henry rifles. No unusual bulging . .45 Colt is Starline. All mid range loads, no hot rodding here.
Buy American, and this concern would go away. Ruger, Henry and now S&W manufacture good lever guns. If you have a design or manufacturing defect, they will fix it on their dime.
I would return the Rossi and ask for my money back if I were you. And don't even consider getting another Rossi.
I would return the Rossi and ask for my money back if I were you. And don't even consider getting another Rossi.
grilledcheese
Member
The mechanicus has failed you, brother. The machine spirit must be appeased.
doubleh
Member
That is to be attributed to the user's skill and not to the tool's short comings. Dremel's are very handy tools once you learn to use one correctly.
It's my belief that lever action rifles have to have looser tolerances than other platforms simply because of design limitations. Bulged brass? Some 9mm handguns bulge the brass where no measuring tool except the eye is needed to see it and and it's quite apparent. How many blown brass brass incidents have you heard about with 9mm? Cartridge brass is amazing resilient.
dagger dog
Member
Apparently, you have a much better gun!
dagger dog
Member
I bought the R92 because it was an1892 Winchester replica, with just a few minor tweaks they become slicker than snot on a brass doorknob and that model weighs less than most modern copies.
OP
OP
NIGHTLORD40K
Contributing Member
Agreed, this one is way smoother than any Winchester or Marlin Ive ever played with. Heck, I don't even LIKE Winchester and Marlin lever guns- I'm an avowed Savage 99 man.....
But this one was dirt cheap, looks good, and shoots great. What's not to like?
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