How do I anneal necked rifle brass?

[Farmer Dave]

I'm having trouble with my .25-20 WIN brass blowing out at the shoulder on just the third firing. I'm not using hot loads by any stretch of the imagination (3.2g of Bullseye behind 85g lead bullet). I'm only shooting cowboy action with these loads out of a 115-year old rifle. I was told I should try annealing the brass to cure this problem, but I'm not familiar with the equipment, supplies, or operations. This opperation is way more advanced than my current skillset, but with the scarcity of this caliber of brass, I need to get as many firings as possible out of each piece and I love shooting this old Winchester 92.

Any suggestions or tips from more experienced reloaders would be welcome.

 

[30Cal]

I would recommend ordering a bottle of 750F Tempilaq which you paint on the inside of the case neck--it turns from chalky to liquid at the designated temp. That takes all the guesswork out of it.

That said, here's what I ended up with (having split my share of 25-20 case necks recently). I use a propane torch with 1" flame. Keep the case a little past the tip of the flame. 3-5 seconds on the shoulder will get the job done (if you turn the lights way down, you should see no more than a dull maroon color). I use a chopstick and rotate by hand, but if I got motivated I'd chuck it in a drill. But that ought to work for 25-20.

Different calibers need slightly different amounts of heat.

You can quench them or not--it doesn't do anything to the grain structure.

 

[SCC]

I haven't had to do any annealing yet, but the method I've seen used a battery drill to spin the brass for even heating. Chuck up a 1/4" socket adapter and an appropriately sized socket. Hold the drill, or clamp it, with the socket upward at about 15 to 30 degrees from vertical. If necessary, tie back the trigger to keep it spinning at a moderate speed. Then drop the brass in the socket and hit it with the torch. Pull the brass from the socket with a gloved hand or tongs and move on to the next one. You only need to anneal just a little way past the shoulder. There are YouTube videos that show the process.

 

[savanahsdad]

I use tempilaq , and a Lee trim shell holder, there are kits at Brownells and/or MidwayUSA that come with Tempilaq and instructions , but all you really is the Tempilaq and a way to spin the cases ,

 

[rondog]

Like what SCC said - except I put the torch in the vise and hold the drill. Brass in a deep socket, hold in flame, drop in bucket of water. I prefer to keep the torch stationary and pointing in a safe direction.

 

[rbernie]

I just use my gas range, a pair of vice groups, and a bucket of water. It's not hard to get a repeatable process using the metal's color during annealing as a guide.

 

[jmorris]

If you are using propane it's pretty easy.

You don't want to let the flame change from blue to orange like in this video or your over doing it.
http://vid121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer.mp4

This is what you want. Flame remains blue throughout the process, case can be held by the base right out of the flame and even color around the case.
http://vid121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/nottoohot.mp4

 

[savanahsdad]

I forgot to say , I use MAP gas (yellow tank) heats faster , you don't want to let the heat travel down the case wall , most guys use propane but I found that MAP works better and faster, same setup plumbers use to sweat copper water pipes ,

 

[rcmodel]

The only way I ever did it was the old fashioned way they told us in the 1960's.

You set the cases upright in a shallow pan of water to protect the case heads from excess heat transfer.

Then in dim light, heat the neck to a dull red with a propane torch.
And tip them over in the water while moving the torch to the next one.

Works perfectly, and is foolproof.

BTW: There is no need to rotate a brass case to get even heat.
Brass transfers heat faster then most metals you ever work with (except stainless, and aluminum.)

But anyway, if it's hot enough on one side, it is hot enough on the other side too!!!

rc

 

[jmorris]

I forgot to say , I use MAP gas (yellow tank) heats faster

This is true. The reason I pointed out the use of propane is because MAP gas does not give the same flame color indicator that propane will. With the use of Tempilaq you will find the flame color indicator (with propane) to be just as accurate, or more accurate, of an indicator that temp has been reached.

BTW: There is no need to rotate a brass case to get even heat.
Brass transfers heat faster then most metals you ever work with (except stainless, and aluminum.)

If your heating them to a "glow" in water the heat would be even for sure but any "glow" is hotter than they need to be and the water method is so you don't anneal the case head too. If you use high heat for short duratiodonna need for water) you either need opposing flames or rotate the case for even heating. Brass is almost as fast at heat transfer as copper and aluminum but still not instant and from a single side with short duration will leave uneven coloring/annealing.

 

[spitballer]

It's been my experience that new brass can only be softened once after leaving the factory, and therefore it's smart to do this in conjunction with a resize if you're going to resize. Brass that has been softened once already is hard to detect because the discoloration can be wiped off.

It's my understanding that a genuine annealing isn't practical for the home reloader because the head has to be hardened afterward. Treasured, rare brass might be worth consulting about...

 

[Laphroaig]

Let me say this about that...

I have annealed some of my brass with a propane torch and know that it greatly extends case life before the necks crack. But my education really began when me and a couple of buddies started making .224 bullets from .22 brass with a set of Corbin dies. In order to form the swaged brass cups into bullets, you must anneal before you insert the lead core or the point will crack during the final step. Nothing is worse than spending the time making a bullet and have the process fail during the final step.

I kept track of my reject percentage with varying types of anneal methods so I can quantify how well they worked. I know that .22 brass might not be the same brass alloy as cartridge brass but its brass none the less. Also bear in mind that annealing is a function of time and temperature. The Corbin instructions say to anneal the brass in your kitchen oven with a cleaning cycle. That was tried, along with a 450 degree industrial oven overnight, a toaster oven, and finally a torch. All of the methods we tried, other than the torch, gave high reject rates which reached 25%.

I consulted a PHD metallurgist buddy who sent me this chart.

http://www.lfa-wire.com/70-30-brass-wire_c26000.htm

Look on the second table, second to the last row. Annealing temp is given as 800-1400F. We had access to another industrial oven and annealed a bunch at 1000F for 1 hour and it worked!

But back to annealing cartridge necks. I do it in a dark room with a torch and a set of pipe pliers. I heat until the faintest red glow starts, then quench in a bucket of water. I figure I can turn the neck about 3/4 turn before the glow starts. I agree that brass transfers heat well so I hope the heat is even with my method. I also know that quenching does nothing in the annealing process but figure that it contains the anneal to the neck and top of the case.

Laphroaig

 

[243winxb]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?270369-The-truth-about-annealing-rifle-brass The best method I seen is, hold the brass and put the neck in a candle flame till u cant hold it.

 

[zb338]

I have a couple of 25/20 rifles. I never had this problem.
All I have to say is maybe you ought to try a slower burning
powder than bullseye. Check out some of the powders on
line or in a loading manual. Also try neck sizing if you can
do so and still close the lever.

Zeke

 

[243winxb]

brass blowing out at the shoulder

brass blowing out at the shoulder

Photos? Not sure of your meaning? Could the 3.2g of Bullseye be to light? The brass head to datum (shoulder) is to short, causing excessive stretching of the brass? I notice on other cartridges using light loads, the body expands outward, pulling the shoulder back. On the next firing, the cartridge has to much slop in the chamber, resulting in a case separation.

 

[Rangemaster]

Over the last weekend I took a pic of annealing my 223 brass.

 

[savanahsdad]

The best method I seen is, hold the brass and put the neck in a candle flame till u cant hold it.

your joking right ? you would never hold a 308win as long as you would a 300WM or a 223 as long as a 25-06 , how about a thick Super Short Mag.

 

[243winxb]

See post #53 at link

Not a joke to some. Seen it over here. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545128&highlight=annealing+candle

I infer you are thinking about not using a heat source so cool that it allows time for heat to get back to the the head before the neck is stress relived. That's actually hard to do. Fred Barker's two systems (Precision Shooting, July 1996, p.p. 90-92) used a candle flame and molten lead at 725°F-750°F. He held the case between his fingers rotating the neck back and forth in the candle flame or holding the case neck in the lead (after dipping in graphite to prevent soldering). When the middle of the case got uncomfortably warm to hold on to (about 150°F), he slapped the case against a damp towel.

Despite those lower temperature heat sources, Barker had a photomicrograph of stress-relieved grains of a piece of cartridge brass (and one of a moderately deformed piece so you could see the difference). He said that with .308 and .30-06, lead took 8-10 seconds to reach the point that the annealing was done and the middle of the case was at 150°F (too hot to hold onto). The candle flame took 15-20 seconds. These lower temperature heat sources proved were adequate and the head is in no danger at 150°, much less when the middle of the case is at 150°F, and he felt the candle flame had the advantage that it could not overheat the neck.

I think it just takes less temperature than most people realize to get the heads stress-relieved. That stress-relief is all that's required to stop splitting, but it is probably just not as soft as people expect to feel. I think that's a good thing, as too little bullet pull lowers start pressure which tends to raise velocity extreme spread. Ideally, you just want to bring the brass back to the condition it was in coming out of the factory. I'm sure that condition and its consistent nature are major reasons for the better accuracy of ammunition loaded from new brass that Bart B. has reported from past evaluations.

 

[ironworkerwill]

your joking right ? you would never hold a 308win as long as you would a 300WM or a 223 as long as a 25-06 , how about a thick Super Short Mag.

That's an old method and it works. When the head gets hot to the touch, its done, toss it in a bowl of water.

 

[savanahsdad]

That's an old method and it works. When the head gets hot to the touch, its done, toss it in a bowl of water.

it can't work for all cases , if you have two cases of same thickness but different length ,you would hold one longer than the other , and if you tried that with a thick short mag , you would burn your fingers long before the neck reached 800deg. , I'm thinking most cases would not reach the 750deg that tempilaq needs to melt , might work for a very few old thin neck cases , , sounds like I'll have to dig through my brass bucket and give a few a try ,

 

[Taroman]

I do it a bit differently

Bore a hole slightly larger than the case neck in a steel bar ~1/2" thick.
Heat it dull red with my oxy-fuel torch.
Insert the case neck into the hole for a few seconds.
Its easy to watch the anneal color change creep to the shoulder.
Then withdraw the case and drop into water to cool.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I did say the method is old and it works but it's not my method. As with any other manually performed task the results depend on the skill and experience of the person doing the work.

{1)Needless to say, this procedure will work fairly well, but requires a high degree of skill, particularly if you are relying on your fingertips to judge the correct max temperature. This method is also very S-L-O-W! Can you imagine having to anneal several hundred cases this way? Another drawback to this method is that you will have a decided lack of uniformity on the periphery of the case neck, and the case-to-case results will be even less uniform. So much for the "old methods". 2) A 650°-rated marker is good for starters, but you may need to go higher or lower to get the best results.} These two excerpts are from http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[MrBorland]

I already spend enough time at my reloading bench, so I'm strongly considering sending mine to someone who anneals brass as a service. Even with shipping, it'd probably be cheaper than buying new brass.

 

[taliv]

this is how i do it



if your goal is precision shooting, then the most important part is that all cases are done the same

most of the methods above seem pretty dang sketchy to me. you may avoid split necks with some of the above methods, but you're not going to get consistency in neck tension by putting the flame on only one side, or by relying on how much pain you feel

i annealed 195 pc of 260AI brass in about 25 minutes last night. and they're all pretty much the same. the only variance is from the propane flame however, there's a new tool on the market as of a few months ago that is an induction annealing kit that can be attached to the giraud and gives extremely consistent annealing. i'll probably give them time to sort the bugs out before i try to buy one.

 

[homatok]

Or try this:
Annealing case necks in Lead
Annealing case necks by dipping them into molten lead that is held at about seven hundred degrees ‘F’ works well. Wheel weight alloy, which is approximately eighty nine parts lead, one part tin and ten parts antimony, melts at six hundred and nineteen degrees ‘F’ so you can safely set your lead alloy temperature at seven hundred degrees ‘F’. The use of a thermometer will take any guesswork out of the process. The reason for using lead for annealing is to keep the temperature low enough for proper uniform annealing, and that is simply not possible using the torch method. With a torch the case is often heated on one side more than the other, temperatures are not readily repeatable from case to case, and in falling over into the water, one side is quenched before the other.

To minimize the likelihood of lead ‘soldering’ itself to the brass case it is best to use as close to pure lead as possible (although any lead alloy will work). Anneal your cases with the fired primers left in, as that forms an airlock that keeps lead away from the inside of the case. With respect to annealing cases using molten lead, basically you: set the thermostat on your pot at seven hundred to eight hundred degrees ‘F’ pick up each case by the head and dip the neck of the cases about a quarter-inch into some powdered graphite or light oil (vegetable oil is fine). The oil keeps lead from sticking to the brass but, any lead that does stick is easily removed by a quick twist in steel wool while the case is still hot. Shake off any excess oil, dip the neck, shoulder, and about a quarter-inch of the case body into the molten lead and just as you begin to feel an uncomfortable degree of heat in your fingertips, drop the case into water. If you hold the cases in some other way than with your bare fingers, leave them in the molten lead from eight to twelve, (optimum) but not more than fifteen seconds. When the case is hot enough that the lead does not cling to it, it is annealed. Pull the case up out of the lead, tap on the side of the case to remove any bits of lead (if the lead is really sticking, the case isn't annealed!), then drop it mouth down (straight) into a container that is mostly full of ice water. Following the anneal, it would be wise to closely inspect the inside of the case both visually and with a bent paper clip just to make sure there are no lead drippings adhering to the inside the case.

If you are left-handed, have the cases on the right side, the lead in the middle, and the ice water on the left. The cases go only one direction, to the left, and you use only one hand. If you are right handed, reverse the set-up. Because it only takes a few seconds per case, you can anneal hundreds of cases in an hour with this method. After the annealing process, remove the cases from the water, shake them out and use a piece of bronze wool to clean the annealed portion. This removes any residual lead and/or burned oil. Then, dry and tumble the cases to remove any traces of residual oil and they are ready to process.