How Do You Decide What to Train For?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by hdwhit, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I've received comments such as that myself. Personally, I just regard those folks as ... not getting it. People seem more concerned about the ability to conceal a firearm than with the actual prospect of having to defend one's self using an effective firearm.

    But hey, at least the guy making the comment had sought out some training -- that's a start.
     
  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    There's a lot of that going around.
     
  3. SteadyD

    SteadyD Member

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    The best selling pistols on Gun Broker are typically the Shield and XD size guns or the even smaller 380 class of guns. At least those folks are training with what they carry.
     
  4. SteadyD

    SteadyD Member

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    My current job requires me to bend, stoop, kneel, and reach high above my head repeatedly in front of customers. I can't carry anything but a pocket pistol in this environment.

    When I take my son to the park, I can't play with him while carrying a Glock 19 size handgun. You ever went down a slide with a Glock 19 on your hip? Crawled through one of those tubes? I'd freak every other parent out when my gun was constantly being exposed from the activity I'm engaged in.

    It is great that you folks have jobs and lifestyles that don't compromise what you can carry, but I see no need to belittle those of us that do. It's either a pocket gun or be unarmed for a good portion of my life.
     
  5. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    And that is one of the scenarios that fall into "biggest gun you can conceal" criteria. If you can't conceal it, it's of no use left at home in the safe or drawer. You're making a choice based on actual limitations of activity and wardrobe. Fine. In my mind, that's perfectly acceptable. My argument is that those who can carry a much more useful firearm choose not to because they do not want to put any effort into it.
     
  6. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    Okay first I have to say this the reason I switched from a shield to an M&P 9C is because they were the same overall size but one held 13 Rounds and one held 9. I can't see enough difference between the 2 to render the one unconcealable vs the other. Similarly a Glock 19 is maybe a quarter inch bigger then a 9C and I know it's thinner. I don't see either one being a difficult gun to conceal.

    Now in order to clarify the context of my last post let me add that the class we attended was intended to be signing the church security team. In that context I absolutely believe there's a single stack subcompact pocket pistol is the wrong gun but it is going to be bought and it is going to take on a carry and I'm glad they're getting training with it. I'm also glad to know that I'm going to be the only one engaging the (potential) shooter while everybody else is busy reloading. :what:

    Ifa pocket gun is the largest gun you can conceal then carry that but I have a really hard time with the idea that a Glock 19 or some concealable gun. I think you just don't want to put the effort into concealing it.
     
  7. SteadyD

    SteadyD Member

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    My attire and work requirements absolutely do not allow me to carry something the size of a 19. It's really that simple. I have a dress code and physical duties that won't allow it. It has nothing to do with "effort" on my part.
     
  8. entropy

    entropy Member

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    For me, how to decide what to train for was simple. My Dad, and then the Army made the choices for me......Dad taught me home defense, the Army taught me how to kick doors and defeat that. Dad and I worked on disarming/retention, and of course I've taught qualification and marksmanship both in the Army and for 4-H.
     
  9. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I'm not talking about work. I understand NPEs. I'm talking about outside of work.
     
  10. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    I don't mean to be condescending. Many people are not familiar with the options available to conceal a larger handgun. I've got small kids. I play with them. I take them to parks sometimes. I also carry a full size 1911 and at least one reload. Some people have actual restrictions placed on them by an employer, those being uniforms that cannot conceal well or outright bans on having a firearm on the property. Other people have actual physical restrictions due to injury, strength, size, age, etc. But most people have imaginary restrictions placed on them by nothing but their minds.
     
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  11. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    My only question is,what would you think if your last thought was "had I a real pistol,we would possibly be about to live and not die".

    I understand that you see your limitations,I see life forces us to face many limitations.

    Having been in "that moment" when I had the 'small gun on' and about to face a threat that was more than the small gun was liable to handle.

    I see that I had a learning moment,and I do anything and EVERYTHING to avoid that ever happening again.

    And do note that I am not tall and cannot hide a big pistol easily,so I most often EDC a Glock 23 and at least 1 spare high cap mag.
     
  12. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    My apologies. Your carry decisions are yours to make. I'm sorry I sidetracked this discussion. I'm out
     
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  13. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    This doesn't (IMO) count as "training" but I think that if you're going to carry you should take the time to research your state's carry laws and use of deadly force laws.
     
  14. Decoy80

    Decoy80 Member

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    I have read 3 pages and found some wisdom mixed with many different opinions on this subject. It's sad but true I can only hope to survive a conflict I am unable to avoid and will not have the element of surprise on my side,it only belongs to the aggressor.
    The reality is there is no possible training to prepare for a situation enough with so many possible variables. Inconceivable even could be said.
    Nothing but instinct to survive and basic common sense can be yours in a split second decision. Then any training you have is a positive and motor skills work instinctively. Situational awareness is always important whether telling a dirty joke or faced with death,and everywhere in between.
    May luck be on our side, luck is always better than being good,anytime.
     
  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    What on Earth led you to that conclusion?

    Are you suggesting that basic common sense would enable one decide an immediate sequence of steps to take in a rapidly unfolding, violent, tumultuous, and terrifying instant, without learned skills for the subconscious mind to act upon?

    This is not original, but a gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.
     
  16. Decoy80

    Decoy80 Member

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    Kleanbore, please dont get offended,you sre a moderator here use your power and delete it. Its poorly spelled,not punctuated correctly,and based on my thoughts. Undo it if you wish,I wont be offended.
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I am not offended.

    I strongly suggest that, before you discount the advantages of training (and that includes a lot more than learning how to handle a firearm), you learn more about it.

    I suggest joining I. C. E. PDN and watching some of the premium videos.

    You are correct in your statement that an attacker will have the advantage of surprise, and in your appreciation of giving the first priority to avoidance.
     
  18. SteadyD

    SteadyD Member

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    No worries. I won't sidetrack any farther as well.
     
  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure that one's "particular environment " is really an important discriminator, but Frank Ettin answered a similar query here about five years ago:


    I'll add this: most "training" with a firearm involves starting from about the same place, knowing where the target is, knowing that one is going to shoot, knowing that there is a clear and unobstructed view with no innocents in the way, knowing thatthre is a safe backstop, shooting at the signal, --and doing that over and over. LEO "qualification" usually involves doing what has been taught and scoring the results.

    That's not true of all training.

    In any event, case, it would be much better to make the trainee recognize for himself whether and when there is a target or threat, decide for himself whether it is a shoot or no-shoot situation, move to get a clear shot with an acceptable backstop, and so on, with variations from time to time.
     
  20. zb338

    zb338 Member

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    I have been shooting for many years, and some of the best combat style shooters I have
    seen are the guys that shoot IDPA. I know IDPA is just a game and not actual combat as
    taught to police, but some of the shooters I was privileged to shoot with were really good.
    They set up all sorts of scenarios and after you shoot with them for a year or so you have
    seen lots of situations.
    Zeke
     
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  21. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    And I will note that NONE of the IDPA events are done with pocket guns aka mouse guns.

    YES, I do carry one as a BUG.
     
  22. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    ?
    I use my carry gun on a regular basis.

    There is even a BUG division, IIRC.
     
  23. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    Yes,aware of the BUG division.

    Shot at VERY reasonable ranges and not at real life op for situations.

    Nothing wrong with a mouse gun,IF the confrontation is at a range your effective with it.

    And no multiple attacker and no speed reloads required [ presuming you carry such ].

    I even include a snubby of most any caliber in that category.

    5 shots of any caliber with a slow reload is not a "combat" pistol.

    Proof = what LEO carries one on a daily basis ?.,talking real LEO's and not "investigators".
     
  24. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    How to decide on what to train on? A good question. No one, not even tier 1 military units have the resources and time to train for every possible scenario. So how do they decide on what to train on?

    In the late 1970s the Army developed and adopted a training management system. At that time it was called the Battalion Training Management System. It is still in use although over the years it's been slightly modified and the name has been changed. It is amazingly simple and it's adaptable to just about every skill one can think of.

    It starts out with what they called a Mission Task List. Basically, the commander just sits down and lists every possible mission he may be asked to accomplish. This generates an insanely long list. So the system further refines it by pulling all of the tasks the commander is likely to be asked to accomplish and placing them on a Mission Essential Task List. The commander makes this determination based on factors like the geographic location he may be asked to operate in and the unique capabilities his unit has.

    Now that the commander has identified what missions he is most likely to be asked to conduct, he refines this even further by creating an Individual Task List that lists the individual tasks that each soldier in his unit must be proficient in so the unit can successfully accomplish the tasks on the Mission Essential Task List. The Army made this job easy for commanders by publishing a series of manuals that breaks down all of the collective and individual tasks so the commander can just pick them from the "menu".

    Interesting you say, but how is this applicable to helping the armed citizen decide what is the best use of his training dollars and time? The beauty of this system is that it's adaptable to just about any skill you need to train on.

    To start, get out a pen and paper or open a word processing file on your computer and make yourself a Mission Task List. List every scenario you can think of. For example; armed robbery in the convenience store, bank robbery, being accosted in a parking lot, or on the street, attempted carjacking, robbery at the ATM, home invasion etc.

    Once you have that list, open another document or get out another piece of paper and put all of the things that are most likely to happen on a new list. List these in order of what is most likely to happen. Think about where you go and what you do in the course of your normal day. It should be relatively simple to figure out what's most likely to happen.

    Now take the "Mission Essential Task List" you just created and think about what skills you will need to prevail in those situations. Write these down on another list. This list will include things like; Maintain Situational Awareness, Draw my Daily Carry from Concealment, Engage a single target with a hammer, Engage a single target with a controlled pair, Fire a failure drill, Recognize and clear a malfunction, Engage multiple targets, Shoot while moving, Recognize the difference between cover and concealment, Engage a target from a non standard firing position, Perform self aid, Treat a sucking chest wound, Use a tourniquet, Stop the bleeding, Treat for shock. This is your individual task list. This is a simple process, just think of all the skills you need to have to deal with each scenario.

    Unfortunately, no one has published a set of manuals like the Army has where you can look up all of the tasks and the standards you need to meet, however the information is out there if you take the time to do the research. There are many excellent books on self defense, we discuss them here all of the time.

    Once you know what you need to train on, you just need to seek out the training. Don't forget that these skills are perishable and that just because you have successfully accomplished them it doesn't mean you never have to train on them again.
     
  25. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    For me, it is simple. I've had a risk management component to my job for over a decade, and spent some of that time as a certified risk assessor, so I analyze personal risk profiles the same way and using the same tools. I coach my defensive pistol and concealed carry students the same toolkit.

    There are a million cliche's for this kind of discussion - "if you don't monitor it, you can't measure it, if you don't measure it, you can't manage it," or "if you don't monitor it, you can't mitigate it" - it really does start with an assessment of your personal exposure profile. As an example - I travel all over the country, go out for drinks with customers/clients/vendors where I can't be armed, well dressed, often paying in cash, spend a lot of time in major markets, stay in hotels between a hundred and hundred and fifty nights per year. My greatest exposure is assault out of the home. My wife, on the other hand, is a stay-at-home mother, only leaves our hometown a few times a month, typically into a SMALLER market or rural area visiting family, her greatest risks are home invasion (especially considering I'm gone so much) and getting assaulted at Walmart/Target/Dillons during a grocery run.

    Once your exposure profile is nailed down, then tactical/operational level planning can happen (not tacticool, think Strategic, Logistic, and Tactics/operations in terms of levels of management). For inside the home, it's pretty straight forward to work out your floorplan, points of ingress, pinch points and traps, especially areas where invasion could happen without immediate alarm (ie. someone enters through a garage window at the back of the house, too far away from the living room to be readily heard during entry). It's also pretty simple to identify your exposure outside the home during routine or common activities. Once this skill is developed, it's not a challenge to adapt to new activities on the fly - for example - on a once in a lifetime vacation opportunity.

    When considering which attacks are relevant for training and practice, a person needs to consider likelihood, balanced against severity of consequence. For example, keeping a loaded rifle at the ready in your car might prepare you for a mass gunman attacking you during gridlock traffic, but it puts you at a higher risk of a child finding your firearm and having an ND injury or death - and the latter is unfortunately much more common than the former. Grant Cunningham explains this risk management triage with the 3 P's: Possibility, Plausibility, and Probability. A great many things are possible, fewer still are plausible, and a very, very small number of things are probable.

    Don't confuse, however, the Possible/Plausible/Probable funnel into the absurdist strawman some folks have tried to make it out to be. When something is "probable" in the context of an attack, it is NOT probable on any given day, for any given person. But rather if you consider the context to be: "If you are attacked... then it will probably in this manner..." This produces a more narrow spectrum of statistics - it doesn't play into "your odds of being attacked are very low, so you don't need any protection or preventative planning." It plays into - something bad IS happening, and it's most likely in this form. Your odds of having a car wreck are very low, but in the event of a life threatening car wreck, it is most probable to be at speeds over the average speed of other motorists on the road, so ways to reduce your risk are to wear your seat belt, have air bags, and to keep your speed in line with that of the traffic flow. Similarly, your odds of being in a car wreck within a mile of your home or work are higher than any other part of the average driver's mileage, especially during high traffic volumes, so putting on your seatbelt as soon as you sit down, avoiding momentary distractions like getting off of the phone, punching your route into your phone or GPS before you start moving, finishing that breakfast bagel before embarking, running for groceries outside of rush hour, etc, will help minimize your risk in those critical miles. It is POSSIBLE your particular fatal car accident will involve an escaped elephant running across the highway, but it's hardly plausible, and infinitesimally not probable - so I wouldn't worry too much about putting an elephant proof grill guard on your car.
     
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