KodiakBeer
member
You don't need your Dads permission to carry a gun in church or anywhere else. If he complains, then make fun of his Sansabelt slacks.
How do you guys feel about this...
- Thread starter Carter
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Defense Minister
Member
I make sure that I am in compliance with state law, and then I keep my mouth shut about carrying in church. My wife, and one member of the church leadership, are the only people who know for certain that I carry while I'm there. There are others who know my stance on firearms, and probably suspect it, but I don't advertise.
As previously stated, the attitude of most folks who sit in a pew on Sunday morning is the reason churches make such a great target. Plus, how hard would it be for a stranger to walk into a church, wait until the morning offering is taken, and then follow the guy with the money out of the sanctuary? We have seen that there is no place sacred among violent criminals; not schools, not malls, not nursing homes, and not churches.
As previously stated, the attitude of most folks who sit in a pew on Sunday morning is the reason churches make such a great target. Plus, how hard would it be for a stranger to walk into a church, wait until the morning offering is taken, and then follow the guy with the money out of the sanctuary? We have seen that there is no place sacred among violent criminals; not schools, not malls, not nursing homes, and not churches.
If you still live at home, then I think if you're a Southern Baptist (and would claim to know Christ and live by the Bible) you really have no choice but to respect your father's wishes. Not trying to start a religious war here but the OP introduced his religious affiliation.
Now if you're living in the role of an adult (not trying to insult you at all), meaning you support yourself, feed yourself, etc, and live on your own, I would just do it and not tell them. I think biblically though it's pretty clear that children must obey parents (unless of course you're in the role of an adult.) Pretty hard to disobey the guy who feeds you.
I realize many, including the OP, may not believe this way, and that's great I love America. Just my .02
Now if you're living in the role of an adult (not trying to insult you at all), meaning you support yourself, feed yourself, etc, and live on your own, I would just do it and not tell them. I think biblically though it's pretty clear that children must obey parents (unless of course you're in the role of an adult.) Pretty hard to disobey the guy who feeds you.
I realize many, including the OP, may not believe this way, and that's great I love America. Just my .02
Tallinar
Member
My church meets in a school, so I'm obviously not able to carry there even if I wanted to.
I think it raises an interesting question as a Christian though. I've thought about it often myself. I will premise what I am about to say by reiterating the fact that I am completely pro-gun and pro-concealed carry. I think concealed carry is not only a lawful thing, but also the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. I'm not trying to turn this thread into a Bible study, but it's a Christian question that needs to be discussed with Christ on the mind. First and foremost as Christians, we must consider all things through the light of God's word; rather than beginning with our pre-conceived notions and making that the basis for our conclusions.
On the one hand, many will point out that Peter carried a sword. They will also point out (sometimes out of exegesis, I might add) where Jesus instructs his disciplies to "buy a sword" in Luke 22. At the same time though, let's not forget the fact that Jesus rebuked Peter in Matthew 26 when he drew his sword and struck the servant at his betrayal. ""Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."
Had Jesus ever rebuked Peter for carrying a sword prior to this? No, he had not. Read on though, and Jesus explains "do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"
Jesus came to fulfill a specific task, and Peter's actions were not in alignment with Jesus' work. Jesus is quick to point out to Peter that, frankly, he was acting out of faith. Do you not think that I am in complete control of this situation? Furthermore, you knew that it had to go down like this from the beginning. Similarly, I think as Christians present day, we must remember that our task is first and foremost to minister as to show Christ to a fallen world of people that are running head-first toward their own destruction. By destruction, we don't mean financial troubles or hardship. We mean the just wrath of a holy God.
I can recall no circumstance in the new testament, post-Pentacost (the book of Acts and thereafter), where Christians are led to take up arms. In fact, we usually see the opposite happening. They preached Christ with boldness, and then they allowed themselves to be taken under the hostility of others (just look at how many of the apostles were martyred). The work of their faith and the joy in Christ was foremost.
When Jim Elliot and his companions went to minister to the tribes in Ecuador; it's recorded that at least two of them were definitely armed. One even fired a warning shot before they were attacked. However, they had determined ahead of time that they would not kill an Auca who did not know Christ in order to same themselves. It was concluded that they were ready for heaven. The Auca were not. A challenging thought.
TLDR? The only picture I want to paint is a reminder that Christ and the work of the Gospel must be first. Earthly security takes a backseat. As much as I may want to dispute it, my lawful (and even earthly responsible) ownership and carrying of weapons does have the capacity to inhibit the work of the Gospel.
If a man comes into my house tonight looking to do evil to my family; rest assured that he will be met by the muzzle of my 12 guage; not the sound of my preaching. At the same time, if I go to the homeless shelter to preach next weekend, my gun will stay home. I genuinely think that's a legitimate stance without falling into hypocrisy.
I think it raises an interesting question as a Christian though. I've thought about it often myself. I will premise what I am about to say by reiterating the fact that I am completely pro-gun and pro-concealed carry. I think concealed carry is not only a lawful thing, but also the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. I'm not trying to turn this thread into a Bible study, but it's a Christian question that needs to be discussed with Christ on the mind. First and foremost as Christians, we must consider all things through the light of God's word; rather than beginning with our pre-conceived notions and making that the basis for our conclusions.
On the one hand, many will point out that Peter carried a sword. They will also point out (sometimes out of exegesis, I might add) where Jesus instructs his disciplies to "buy a sword" in Luke 22. At the same time though, let's not forget the fact that Jesus rebuked Peter in Matthew 26 when he drew his sword and struck the servant at his betrayal. ""Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."
Had Jesus ever rebuked Peter for carrying a sword prior to this? No, he had not. Read on though, and Jesus explains "do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"
Jesus came to fulfill a specific task, and Peter's actions were not in alignment with Jesus' work. Jesus is quick to point out to Peter that, frankly, he was acting out of faith. Do you not think that I am in complete control of this situation? Furthermore, you knew that it had to go down like this from the beginning. Similarly, I think as Christians present day, we must remember that our task is first and foremost to minister as to show Christ to a fallen world of people that are running head-first toward their own destruction. By destruction, we don't mean financial troubles or hardship. We mean the just wrath of a holy God.
I can recall no circumstance in the new testament, post-Pentacost (the book of Acts and thereafter), where Christians are led to take up arms. In fact, we usually see the opposite happening. They preached Christ with boldness, and then they allowed themselves to be taken under the hostility of others (just look at how many of the apostles were martyred). The work of their faith and the joy in Christ was foremost.
When Jim Elliot and his companions went to minister to the tribes in Ecuador; it's recorded that at least two of them were definitely armed. One even fired a warning shot before they were attacked. However, they had determined ahead of time that they would not kill an Auca who did not know Christ in order to same themselves. It was concluded that they were ready for heaven. The Auca were not. A challenging thought.
TLDR? The only picture I want to paint is a reminder that Christ and the work of the Gospel must be first. Earthly security takes a backseat. As much as I may want to dispute it, my lawful (and even earthly responsible) ownership and carrying of weapons does have the capacity to inhibit the work of the Gospel.
If a man comes into my house tonight looking to do evil to my family; rest assured that he will be met by the muzzle of my 12 guage; not the sound of my preaching. At the same time, if I go to the homeless shelter to preach next weekend, my gun will stay home. I genuinely think that's a legitimate stance without falling into hypocrisy.
Carter
Member
bgrav321-My parents are southern baptist, I'm not so keen on calling myself that as I have my differences with it. However, I currently do live at home, freshly graduated from college, and trying to find a real job, which is a major pain right now. All of my gun stuff is paid for by me with my little tiny income from my temporary job. My parents may not feel it is right to carry in church, but I do, and I feel that it is my job to protect me and mine, even if they have objections to how it is done.
I have thought about talking to maybe the pastor only, but I have no real knowledge of his opinion, and I believe it is a private matter for me to decide, not the congregation. However, if it became an issue, I'd leave.
Ironically if someone tried to rob our offering they'd be disappointed. Most of our church's money is done to the office at different times. Although, to the unknowing, it looks like were cheap.
I have thought about talking to maybe the pastor only, but I have no real knowledge of his opinion, and I believe it is a private matter for me to decide, not the congregation. However, if it became an issue, I'd leave.
Ironically if someone tried to rob our offering they'd be disappointed. Most of our church's money is done to the office at different times. Although, to the unknowing, it looks like were cheap.
Low Budget Shooter
Member
Dear THR,
I had the privilege of preaching about this just this week. Here's the link in case you would like to listen:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=74101612105
In case you don't want to listen to it, the short version is: if you know you need to take money in your wallet to buy something, and you know you need to take food in your lunchbox to eat something, then you should know that you need to take a weapon if you want to be protected from murderers.
LBS
I had the privilege of preaching about this just this week. Here's the link in case you would like to listen:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=74101612105
In case you don't want to listen to it, the short version is: if you know you need to take money in your wallet to buy something, and you know you need to take food in your lunchbox to eat something, then you should know that you need to take a weapon if you want to be protected from murderers.
LBS
HOWARD J
Member
Here in MI you are not allowed to carry a gun in the places that crazies like to attack.
Schools, colleges, churches, taverns, etc.
Normally, this country likes to give the criminal the edge.............
Schools, colleges, churches, taverns, etc.
Normally, this country likes to give the criminal the edge.............
Carter,
I personally would refrain from carrying while living at home then. A good Christian friend of mine is in a similar circumstances of wanting to do things but not being in agreement with the parents. I see the Bible teaching honoring and obeying one's parents. I'm not opposed to the carry at all. I'd just start once you land that job. (they're out there, promise)
However, you are you, and I am me.
One other thing, if I was carrying at church, I would tell NO ONE. Especially not the pastor. People don't need to know they're being protected to be protected.
I personally would refrain from carrying while living at home then. A good Christian friend of mine is in a similar circumstances of wanting to do things but not being in agreement with the parents. I see the Bible teaching honoring and obeying one's parents. I'm not opposed to the carry at all. I'd just start once you land that job. (they're out there, promise)
However, you are you, and I am me.
One other thing, if I was carrying at church, I would tell NO ONE. Especially not the pastor. People don't need to know they're being protected to be protected.
irishelcid
Member
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there's a reason that "mega" churches have armed security details. My father is a priest and know's that I carry in church. He didn't always see the logic of it until he got a job at a little church in a bad neighborhood.
Vonderek
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- Messages
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Tallinar,
So if you go to preach at the homeless shelter and some psychotic starts killing people, is that God's will? Are people who are murdered on church grounds fulfilling God's will? I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. A church is not heaven on earth...it is a physical edifice constructed by men and populated in large part by sick people. It is a hospital for damaged spirits. And it is a magnet for the truly deranged. I have personally experienced this on numerous occasions.
Yes, Jesus rebuked Peter for his action in the garden prior to his arrest but I understand it as a rebuke for Peter trying to prevent God's plan for Jesus. The mere fact that Jesus permitted at least some of his followers to carry weapons is telling. If his was truly a pacifist movement then weapons would have been forbidden, the same as what we deal with today in many facets of society. And let's not forget the righteous violence employed by Jesus himself in the clearing the moneychangers out of the temple.
To all-sorry to turn this into a religious post but the whole thread is about carrying in church and as such doctrine needs to be discussed.
So if you go to preach at the homeless shelter and some psychotic starts killing people, is that God's will? Are people who are murdered on church grounds fulfilling God's will? I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. A church is not heaven on earth...it is a physical edifice constructed by men and populated in large part by sick people. It is a hospital for damaged spirits. And it is a magnet for the truly deranged. I have personally experienced this on numerous occasions.
Yes, Jesus rebuked Peter for his action in the garden prior to his arrest but I understand it as a rebuke for Peter trying to prevent God's plan for Jesus. The mere fact that Jesus permitted at least some of his followers to carry weapons is telling. If his was truly a pacifist movement then weapons would have been forbidden, the same as what we deal with today in many facets of society. And let's not forget the righteous violence employed by Jesus himself in the clearing the moneychangers out of the temple.
To all-sorry to turn this into a religious post but the whole thread is about carrying in church and as such doctrine needs to be discussed.
Low Budget Shooter
Member
Dear Tallinar,
As noble a sentiment as the Elliot party had in deciding to submit to murder by the Aucas, I think they interpreted the Bible wrongly and so decided wrongly. I know they are held as heroes and martyrs, but it could be that they were wrong.
LBS
As noble a sentiment as the Elliot party had in deciding to submit to murder by the Aucas, I think they interpreted the Bible wrongly and so decided wrongly. I know they are held as heroes and martyrs, but it could be that they were wrong.
LBS
Since you are carrying concealed the only people that need to know are you and the omniscient one that is the reason for attending in the first place.
Unless you are determined to changing your parents' minds (probably not all that possible) don't bring it up.
Unless you are determined to changing your parents' minds (probably not all that possible) don't bring it up.
Gouranga
Member
I do not carry in my church. it is not posted and we do not have a school. My wife had some concerns with me carrying there. Normally, I would carry anyway however, after the last round o church shootings, specifically the one where a lady CCWing put an end to it, my church took steps to prevent that. Namely my church has 3 armed off-duty police officers who stand outside the doors and watch the lot, and inside the building for every service. We are also in a pretty safe area and have not had any issues with vandalism, crime, etc.
However, really if i were in the OP's position, I would certainly carry at my church. You gotta respect the parents, sit down with them, calmly explain to them your reasoning, that while it is highly unlikely you would need the weapon, it would not be the first time a place of worship was also a target of violent criminals. Really explain to them the reasoning behind it. Then after that, don't tell them. Carry concealed legally and don't even bring it up.
However, really if i were in the OP's position, I would certainly carry at my church. You gotta respect the parents, sit down with them, calmly explain to them your reasoning, that while it is highly unlikely you would need the weapon, it would not be the first time a place of worship was also a target of violent criminals. Really explain to them the reasoning behind it. Then after that, don't tell them. Carry concealed legally and don't even bring it up.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
While I appreciate those of the faith that have taken time to explain their interpretations of holy writ, religions discussions are not allowed here for reasons explained clearly in our forum rules.
So, please, respectfully, do not post any more commentary on whether the Bible/Jesus would want you to carry and/or defend yourself.
If we can stick to the LAW and whatever SOCIAL implications you find compelling, that's fine. If not, we'll have to close this down.
So, please, respectfully, do not post any more commentary on whether the Bible/Jesus would want you to carry and/or defend yourself.
If we can stick to the LAW and whatever SOCIAL implications you find compelling, that's fine. If not, we'll have to close this down.
easyg
Member
I don't think it would be legal considering the school on church grounds.
SO....
I would find a different church to attend or stop going altogether.
SO....
I would find a different church to attend or stop going altogether.
Low Budget Shooter
Member
Dear Sam,
You're right, of course. It's been a while since I looked at the forum rules, and I had forgotten about that part. I apologize. Thank you for scolding us so kindly.
LBS
You're right, of course. It's been a while since I looked at the forum rules, and I had forgotten about that part. I apologize. Thank you for scolding us so kindly.
LBS
Someone once asked me as I locked and loaded before heading out of the house "do you really need that thing?". My answer: "man, I sure hope not".
Since then they've came around to see that if you ever do need a pistol, you will need it very, very badly.
Since then they've came around to see that if you ever do need a pistol, you will need it very, very badly.
speaksoftly
Member
Well being Jewish, I don't go to church but do occasionally attend a local synagogue. When I got my CHL I made it a personal goal to carry 100% and this includes in a place religious gathering. I've never been in a situation where I had to use my conceal carry weapon to defend my life but being in a house of worship does NOT make you safe.
Also, if you want an interesting tidbit take a look at the below link. My father was in the synagogue service when the following shooting occurred.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-04-28/news/9704270404_1_synagogue-anderson-klan
Also, if you want an interesting tidbit take a look at the below link. My father was in the synagogue service when the following shooting occurred.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-04-28/news/9704270404_1_synagogue-anderson-klan
RainDodger
Member
A concealed pistol is just that - concealed. How would they even know you have a pistol?
That's the point of concealment. They would only know if you need it.... and then you won't care who knows about it.
That's the point of concealment. They would only know if you need it.... and then you won't care who knows about it.
searcher451
Member
With all deference to your mother, if you believe that you need to pack while in church, then by all means pack while you are in church; that's why they call it conceled carry. These days, given the plethora of church shootings ...
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...g6wOAmOXGCAAAAKoEBU_Qt9o7&fp=4cb5f508e49085f6
... I'd feel far safer with a P99 on my hip than with just a hymnal. But that's just me.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...g6wOAmOXGCAAAAKoEBU_Qt9o7&fp=4cb5f508e49085f6
... I'd feel far safer with a P99 on my hip than with just a hymnal. But that's just me.
Just One Shot
Member
Check these guys out.
http://www.christianzoneforum.com/forum/
You can get answers to your question from some like minded christians of which I am one. Do a search when you get there, I'm sure this topic has been discussed and alot of good responses are posted that can help you with your parents.
I'm a Southern Baptist myself. In Ohio you must have permission to CC in church. I have sought and received permission from the Pastor.
http://www.christianzoneforum.com/forum/
You can get answers to your question from some like minded christians of which I am one. Do a search when you get there, I'm sure this topic has been discussed and alot of good responses are posted that can help you with your parents.
I'm a Southern Baptist myself. In Ohio you must have permission to CC in church. I have sought and received permission from the Pastor.
nitetrane98
Member
Tell them what they want to hear and then do what's right for you.
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