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How do you plan for this?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by DeepSouth, Jul 8, 2015.

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  1. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    Full article HERE....

    The above is just the latest example to catch my eye, there have been several others. Some with less shady individuals, some with more.

    With roughly 80,000 "no knock" SWAT raids a year it's not surprising that they do occasionally, go to the wrong address or the wrong floor of an appt building or have faulty information and end up at completely unaware/innocent persons house kicking the door down in the middle of the night.

    So do you have any type of plan in your home defense strategy to allow for "friendlys" busting in your house. If so what?
    It's something I've thought about as it seems to be happening more and more, but I honestly can't think of a good way to prepare for the possibility.

    I'm just curious what if anything others have done.
     
  2. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I am interested in this answer from the community as well. I like to think I am at a low risk for a no knock raid or at a wrong address considering how rural I live. Having trained with law enforcement agencies the world over, even on no knock raids many agencies will identify they are Police upon entry. Not much help for the officers first in that may gt shot before the words come out anyway.
     
  3. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I like how the membership here all has such a high opinion of their own tactical prowess that they think they will be able to wake from REM sleep and coolly identify the threat, arm themselves and take out the first officer or two through the door.

    The only way to prepare to handle this situation is to harden your home so that you have enough warning of an intrusion so that you can prepare yourself and determine if the intruder is a bad guy or the police.

    The chances of winning a gunfight with a SWAT team are very low. The chances of dying after being shot numerous times when you raise a weapon at the officers shining bright lights in your face are very high.

    The police, mistaken location or not are going to come when they think your readiness is the lowest. They will come with enough force to overwhelm everyone they expect to find in the house in seconds and it's likely they will use multiple entry points. Your chances of mounting an effective defense are just about zero. Your chance of breathing your last breath if you attempt it are almost 100%.

    If you intend to mount a defense against this highly unlikely event, you need to train and arm everyone in the house. You need to harden the house so that it will withstand mechanical and explosive breaching for a good two minutes so that everyone can arm themselves and move to their defensive positions. One or more persons in the home will have to be awake at all times, the number awake should be determined by the threat level. Everyone needs to be up, dressed, armed and in their defensive position one hour before EMNT.

    If you want to exist that way, go ahead. I personally don't consider that living and choose not to expend any energy preparing for such an extremely unlikely event. Anyone who thinks they could mount an effective defense against a well trained team coming for them is delusional.

    If the SWAT team comes and they are at the wrong house, sue them for enough money that they have to raise taxes to pay the judgement. Resist and you most likely die.
     
  4. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    What you said:
    What I heard, you need a driveway alarm.


    Btw
    I don't think anyone here would intentionally fight a swat team. So the rest of what you said is less than useful. No one wants to "mount a defense" against them, they want to identify them then lay down and comply (aka stay alive)


    Just say, I don't have a plan because I don't think it'll happen. Which is perfectly reasonable.
     
  5. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Believe it or not, this isn't the first time this subject has come up here. Do a search for threads on mistaken SWAT Team raids and no-knock raids. We used to get two or three of those threads every time a story hit the news. You will find long threads that were eventually closed full of chest thumping bravado. You will find them here, in General Gun Discussions and in Legal from back in the days when it was Legal and Political. My post was meant to head off that kind of ignorance in this thread before it gets started.
     
  6. Lord Teapot

    Lord Teapot Member

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    open fire, the odds are very high it's not the federal government breaking into your house, though it is possible as incidents like this show.
     
  7. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    In that case I now feel like the south end of a north bound donkey. :eek:
    I took your comment as personally directed at me, my mistake.

    I guess since I don't spend a lot of time in S&T I just haven't seen the other threads.
    I'll search and see if I can find some.
     
  8. TomJ
    • Contributing Member

    TomJ Contributing Member

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    The plan is actually pretty simple. Do nothing. Don' t make sudden movements or anything else that would make them believe you're a threat as you would with any contact with law enforcement. They'll either find out they're in the wrong house before they arrest you and bring you in or afterwards. Then, as Jeff mentioned, if it's appropriate get a great attorney and sue them. All of that being said, the odds of it happening are so remote I wouldn't give it a second thought.
     
  9. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    I think the bigger question is how do you tell if it is a real LE raid or bad guys pretending to be cops?
     
  10. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    Most of us are lead to believe, and with the support of many state laws, that somebody busting into your house in the middle of the night is grounds enough to open fire. The OP raises serious questions and concerns that should not be downplayed by arguing against actions he has not suggested. Nobody is suggesting fighting a SWAT team, and the obvious answer to the questin not asked is to put your hands in the air and not move until instructed to do so.

    The question was, in other words, "When you awaken from a dead sleep with your door kicked down, and even with men yelling "Police" or "FBI", will have the soundness of mind to instantly comprehend the situation and complying without instinctivey reaching for your weapon and getting riddled?"

    I understand the tactical reasoning for these type of warrant executions, but still find them very disturbing and question whether the risk of people being killed or killing police out of a self defense reflex is worth the tactical advantage.
     
  11. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    That discussion is off topic and will not happen here.

    Really the only thing you can do is harden your home so that the intruders will be delayed long enough to awaken you. An alarm system, doors that will require a lot of noisy effort to breach. You need time to wake up and figure out what's actually happening. The only way to do that is to slow the entry down long enough for that to happen.
     
  12. sawdeanz

    sawdeanz Member

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    This is an important case for sending letters to your police chief/mayor, "Stop using SWAT to serve minor drug warrants." It's dangerous for the cops and dangerous for the citizens. There have been several stories in just the last year. A baby who took a flashbang to the crib and died (wrong house). A small time drug user who reached for a gun and was shot (lousy informant). A completely innocent man who shot a SWAT member coming in through the window (wrong house). I believe the last one was eventually not charged, but it still shows the danger to all involved. Many times the SWAT is found not to have identified themselves or if they did no one heard them because (surprise) they were asleep.

    Really I don't know how to approach this. If you aim a flashlight to identify the target, you might get shot. Maybe this is a good cause for having a flashlight in addition to your weapon light. In addition to hardening your home, how about being able to access hallway/foyer lights from the bedroom so that you can see but be unseen. Have a clearly visible house number.

    But again this is really a department issue. Between the incidents last year, and the Ferguson riots and abuse this year, departments might start to rely on traditional policing rather than offensive actions. Is it really worth the risk of having shots exchanged to try and prevent the drug dealer from flushing his stash? If he really is a dealer and not just a user with a few grams he won't have time anyway.
     
  13. Evil-Twin

    Evil-Twin member

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    To be honest, I only read, your personal account of the events... It may have been addressed in the link or in other post... but
    I have to question... The DEA agents wear very large Identifying Vests, and they announce who they are before entering a premises... If you are going to aim and shoot a visually Identifiable DEA agent... that's on you, If for some reason they were not in Identifiable DEA assault uniform, then its on them......

    Every law enforcement authority, wear identifiable vests with large Letters.. be they US Marshals, DEA, FBI, State, federal or local agencies, they do this so they " Don't get shot, but also to make sure their arrest, tactical assault , is done by the book... They also need a judicial court appointed warrant.

    What would I do? I would allow then to execute the warrant... IN order to gain access via warrant they need to show the court a reasonable proof of criminal activity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  14. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    I remember a case some years back where the police raided the wrong house and the home owner, thinking it was a gang type home invasion, popped out of a bedroom door and fired a 12 ga. at the first person coming up the stairs, killing a police officer.

    The home owner was convicted of murder because he "should" have heard the police identify themselves among all the other ruckus and noise.

    I always thought that one was messed up.
     
  15. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    While home hardening is a fine suggestion, one must also realize that in life its simply not possible to plan for every possible thing that can go wrong.
     
  16. Evil-Twin

    Evil-Twin member

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    Home invasion is accomplished by gaining access to the house... usually by the easiest means possible... its your house... make the easy access points hard to breach. how many easy access points do you have in your house? Home Depot and Lowes sell very inexpensive wireless alarms for windows and doors...


    GE

    Model # 56789

    Internet # 202195337

    Personal Security Window/Door Alarm

    eb4ee3a1-c44b-4c48-aec4-a1010a217098_400.jpg


    6.97 each at home depot... invaders can't get into the house to disarm them without going off.
    Protect you home with easy access wireless alarms.. the alarms is as loud as a smoke alarm... enough to make a home invader think about trying to get in...
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  17. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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  18. PowerG

    PowerG Member

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  19. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    They sell some rather nice items at a low price point. I bought a driveway alarm from there that you plug into an interior light. When the sensor is tripped the light turns on and makes a chime just loud enough to wake up most sleepers. Cost around $40 if I remember correctly.
     
  20. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    Anytime you draw/fire your weapon it`s on you.
     
  21. strambo

    strambo Member

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    First off, though mistaken raids happen, odds are they were at the right house. So, I don't need to prepare to not sell drugs (do we know if they were at the wrong house?).

    "At Monday’s hearing, a prosecutor told the judge that evidence against Robinson now indicates he played “a limited role” in any drug scheme, just using his property to store illegal chemicals.

    No drugs were found in Robinson’s house."

    Seems he wasn't innocent and the wording is from the OP's link that has a clear bias.

    Second, running out the back door shooting is a poor tactical choice anyway...and he should have been able to make a positive ID before shooting.

    Thirdly, as mentioned above, the more you physically harden your house, the more time you have.

    Fourth, if you truly are mistakenly the subject of a no-knock SWAT raid, you are probably screwed either way.
     
  22. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    I would not have been part of a narcotics manufacturing ring and therefore averted the whole situation in the first place.

    MAGIC
     
  23. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    I wonder what percentage of residences are or even could be hardened to the point it would make access difficult enough to give enough forewarning to make a difference or better yet repel an entry?
    So many rental units, homes built in ways almost counter to security, heavily mortgaged with no spare cash to remodel.
    Take a drive around your neighborhood with the eye of a criminal and you'll see that proper security of most homes would be a major undertaking.
    I've built quite a few homes and at best, customers have asked for a somewhat hardened storage room in the basement but for the most part maximizing view and spreading out the living space is at the forefront of design.
    I'm no longer building homes but if I ever build another for myself I certainly have some features I will incorporate into its design but I feel it will probably be to the detriment of its resale value in the future.
     
  24. strambo

    strambo Member

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    My house has a "strikemaster II" doorplate which is a 5' long dual layer metal door jamb plate with screws tieing it to the studs. I'd love to know how many hand-held battering ram whacks that would take, I bet a few.

    My accessable windows/slider have security film professionally installed, that stuff can take a real beating. Neither of those things cost that much. Hardening a home against a criminal crew can be done fairly simply and cost-effective with some imagination. The SWAT raid is tough, I would just hope for enough time to clear the cobwebs so I can think clearly and hopefully get 911 on the horn to confirm.
     
  25. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    Whats the long term quality of the security film, does it scratch, blister or peel?
    Can it be removed and replaced easily?
    I'm not at all familiar with the product but I wonder if it overlaps the window frames so it ties the whole unit in place? Does the film discolor at the vinyl or wood window frames?
     
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