Captains1911
Member
I've already clearly explained why having a record of private transfer was of value. Your failure to recognize it is astonishing.
How do you sell a gun?
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theautobahn
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When I'm selling a gun to someone I don't know (there is a great local (northern New England) publication both paper and online in which one can list firearms for sale), I meet people in a public parking lot. Supermarkets, fast food restaurants, etc. Even if someone freaks out and calls the cops, you'll most likely be done with the transaction and be gone by then - and besides, you didn't do anything illegal.
?? Invaluable ?? In my state (Maine), I can't sell to anyone I SUSPECT of not being legally able to own a firearm, and they must be 18 (for long guns or handguns [private sale]). Not only do you not need paperwork, I don't think it's a great idea. If the ATF / FBI can't prove that you sold it to someone you shouldn't have, you're clear. By no means do I condone illegal sales, but if you keep records and happen to have something dumb in them (like showing a profit on a gun sale), then they can spank you.
dogtown tom
Member
Sorry, it wasn't self explanatory.
Do you really think a felon or prohibited person would have the least difficulty with writing JimmyBob Stumpjumper on your "bill of sale"?
As mentioned earlier, a "bill of sale" is for the benefit of the BUYER.....it offers nothing for a seller. You might as well sign it yourself.
The idea that a bill of sale will somehow protect the seller is a myth.
kcshooter
Member
Do you really think it would get that far without me suspecting something? Do you think having "JimmyBob Stumpjumper" (or any false name) on a driver's license is an easy feat to pull off? Have you seen the antifraud measures on a recent drivers license?? Do you think a prohibited party would be more likely to buy from someone requiring ID and a BOS vs someone who refuses to have any record of the transaction at all?
If it makes me feel better about the transaction, what is the problem? I've said it like 5 times now, they are MY guns, and I'll sell them any way I want to. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
NavyLCDR
member
Not true at all Tom. The Bill of Sale certainly does protect the seller. It is a signed receipt that the buyer actually received the item that they paid for should the buyer attempt to claim in court that they did not receive the item.
DammitBoy
Member
I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't care if you get a bill of sale or not.
Getting a drivers license with a fake name is simple. Ask any illegal alien, most of the ones I met on construction sites had three drivers licenses with three different names.
theautobahn
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I don't disagree, but would point out that NO paperwork provides the same protection (the buyer doesn't have an even remotely provable claim), plus the added advantages I listed above.
A guy I know who runs a small LGS (but does crazy volume) and has been doing so for 20+ years STRONGLY recommends no paperwork in a private sale - he's seen WAY more issues arrive from recordkeeping than from not.
leadcounsel
member
A BOS at least prooves you looked at their licenses and it reinforces that you did your due diligence to at least ASK them the questions to determine if they are prohibited.
If THEY lie on your BOS, then that's on them. What you really care about is 1) ensuring you did your part to reasonably determine their qualifications under the law (or rather they are not disqualified and 2) keep a papertrail to sever your ties with that particular gun.
I will ad that any gun that I rarely sell guns, but if I co, if I have completed the FFL paperwork for, I always get a BOS. I definately want a papertrail that severs my name from that gun.
It would be a real bummer if your gun registered to you were used in a mass shooting, the real shooter unidentified, and your prints all over the gun and you with no alibi...
And I disagree that guns are like anything else... we don't have special safety rules for things like TVs and desks and couches.... we cannot purposefully pretent they aren't dangerous tools and they are at times used by desperate or upset or crazy people to do harm/death to others. I don't want a gun that was in my possession to end up at a crime scene. I won't be able to wiggle my way out like Eric Holder...
If THEY lie on your BOS, then that's on them. What you really care about is 1) ensuring you did your part to reasonably determine their qualifications under the law (or rather they are not disqualified and 2) keep a papertrail to sever your ties with that particular gun.
I will ad that any gun that I rarely sell guns, but if I co, if I have completed the FFL paperwork for, I always get a BOS. I definately want a papertrail that severs my name from that gun.
It would be a real bummer if your gun registered to you were used in a mass shooting, the real shooter unidentified, and your prints all over the gun and you with no alibi...
And I disagree that guns are like anything else... we don't have special safety rules for things like TVs and desks and couches.... we cannot purposefully pretent they aren't dangerous tools and they are at times used by desperate or upset or crazy people to do harm/death to others. I don't want a gun that was in my possession to end up at a crime scene. I won't be able to wiggle my way out like Eric Holder...
NavyLCDR
member
Really? Let's see... buyer provides the court with a cancelled check or a cashed money order and says, "I gave John Smith this check/money order for the purchase of a rifle and he never delivered the rifle to me."
What do you think would carry more weight in court? John Smith saying, "We met in a McDonald's parking lot and I gave him the rifle! We shook hands and parted ways and that was it." or John Smith presenting a piece of paper with the buyer's signature on it with a statement, "Received one Model 60 .22 caliber rifle on June 1, 2012 for the purchase price of $50."
Only if you attach those specific documents/information to the bill of sale. The routine bill of sale only describes the item purchased, when purchased and for how much, with signatures for the receipt of the item/purchase price. You would have to be extra specific to add extra information that would prove anything about the purchaser's state of residence, age, and ability to lawfully posses firearms.
denton
Member
Guys, I don't have any problem whatever with people choosing or not choosing to keep a paper trail on guns they sell or buy. Do what you think is best.
I am not an attorney, so what follows is simply the understanding of someone who has spent a lot of time reading about firearms and the law.
I think that some of you are overestimating your legal burden.
For example:
Probably not.
The requirement is that you not knowingly transfer a firearm out of state or to a prohibited person. Similarly, you may not knowingly receive a firearm across a state line or if you are a prohibited person. There is no requirement that you go looking for evidence, though I think that a responsible person will check a driver's license or auto plate and will back away from a deal that doesn't feel right.
Further, the term "domicile" has a precise legal meaning, and you can have only one. The term "residence" does not, and is not defined in our federal firearms laws, and you can have more than one. If you have a home in Arizona that you live in all winter, and another in Jackson Hole that you live in all summer, you have two residences and can legally privately buy firearms in either location without benefit of FFL.
There is potential mischief in keeping receipts or bills of sale. If the authorities ask for information on a private transfer, and you produce a signed document for it, then they might ask, "How many more of these do you have? Five? Well, did you make on money on these? Are you aware that this might constitute dealing in firearms without an FFL?" Sadly, there is no bright line that tells how many firearms you can sell in what period of time without an FFL.
My transfers are very few. And as far as I know, Yugo M48s are not popular in our local gang culture (as though I would know). So I don't worry about enabling someone to commit a crime. I've had the good fortune of dealing with people who seemed like normal, stable, responsible people.
If asked, I can honestly say that my face to face sales have been one every year or so. And I'd rather not have a paper trail that a gung-ho enforcement agent could use to raise questions I don't want to deal with.
Similarly, if cash is exchanged for a firearm, face to face, then getting sued is not even on my worry radar.
My personal approach is that it is better for everyone if two strangers meet, cash goes one way, the gun goes the other, and two strangers part company, happy with the bargain they have made, never to meet again. If you disagree, I have no quarrel with you.
I am not an attorney, so what follows is simply the understanding of someone who has spent a lot of time reading about firearms and the law.
I think that some of you are overestimating your legal burden.
For example:
Probably not.
The requirement is that you not knowingly transfer a firearm out of state or to a prohibited person. Similarly, you may not knowingly receive a firearm across a state line or if you are a prohibited person. There is no requirement that you go looking for evidence, though I think that a responsible person will check a driver's license or auto plate and will back away from a deal that doesn't feel right.
Further, the term "domicile" has a precise legal meaning, and you can have only one. The term "residence" does not, and is not defined in our federal firearms laws, and you can have more than one. If you have a home in Arizona that you live in all winter, and another in Jackson Hole that you live in all summer, you have two residences and can legally privately buy firearms in either location without benefit of FFL.
There is potential mischief in keeping receipts or bills of sale. If the authorities ask for information on a private transfer, and you produce a signed document for it, then they might ask, "How many more of these do you have? Five? Well, did you make on money on these? Are you aware that this might constitute dealing in firearms without an FFL?" Sadly, there is no bright line that tells how many firearms you can sell in what period of time without an FFL.
My transfers are very few. And as far as I know, Yugo M48s are not popular in our local gang culture (as though I would know). So I don't worry about enabling someone to commit a crime. I've had the good fortune of dealing with people who seemed like normal, stable, responsible people.
If asked, I can honestly say that my face to face sales have been one every year or so. And I'd rather not have a paper trail that a gung-ho enforcement agent could use to raise questions I don't want to deal with.
Similarly, if cash is exchanged for a firearm, face to face, then getting sued is not even on my worry radar.
My personal approach is that it is better for everyone if two strangers meet, cash goes one way, the gun goes the other, and two strangers part company, happy with the bargain they have made, never to meet again. If you disagree, I have no quarrel with you.
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denton
Member
As I said, a Bill of Sale is a document generated by the seller, for the benefit of the buyer. It is the buyer's proof that he now has title to the goods.
Anybody that asks a buyer to sign a Bill of Sale doesn't understand what a Bill of Sale is. Only sellers sign a Bill of Sale.
If you want a receipt, then get a receipt. That's OK.
Anybody that asks a buyer to sign a Bill of Sale doesn't understand what a Bill of Sale is. Only sellers sign a Bill of Sale.
If you want a receipt, then get a receipt. That's OK.
Captains1911
Member
What if rather than calling it a "Bill of Sale", we call it a "Record of Transfer," then do we agree that it may serve a purpose for the seller?
There is a lot of ignorance floating around in this thread....
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NavyLCDR
member
You are wrong.
http://www.dcu.org/streetwise/auto/sample-bill-of-sale.html
http://www.northwestfirearms.com/misc/nwfa-bos.pdf
Have a nice day.
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denton
Member
That has often happened before, but I don't think so in this case. Spend a little time on some legal sites researching the term, and let me know.
Wikipedia has it's faults to be sure, but their explanation is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_sale
If you just call it a receipt, then my sensibilities are not offended. Humor me.
I'm really sure that everyone involved in the conversation is trying to be very responsible and to abide by all applicable laws. What we're quibbling about is how to do that, and what exposes us to the least risk.
We've all read about how overzealous BATFE sometimes is. Basically, they get funded based on the number of prosecutions they generate and the fines and forfeitures they squeeze out of people. Even though your heart may be pure, having a stack of non-required transfer records can easily open the door to conversations you really don't want to have. If the records do not exist, there can't be those conversations. There is a good reason that most large corporations have an aggressive document destruction policy, and the same reason applies to us.
Receipts for transfers are a liability. It may not be fair, and it may not be right, and it may be counterproductive to the public good. But it is so.
You seem surprised?
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Captains1911
Member
I'm done with you
splattergun
Member
I like the gun range method. The buyer gets to try it out, seller can feel secure.
Only problem is, the last time I met a guy at the range, another fellow made a higher offer. Good for seller, not for buyer. I don't get into bidding wars on flea-bay and won't at a FTF.
theautobahn
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Which part of NO PAPERWORK was I unclear about? Also, who the heck takes a check for a private sale of a firearm to someone they don't know? Or even a money order? You might as well have asked what I would do if he disputed the charge on his credit card?!
And with that legal thinking, what stops someone from doing that with any cancelled check "Geez, your honor, I gave Mom and Pop Store (with no cameras) this check/money order for the purchase of $XX of goods and they didn't give them to me".
oneounceload
member
How many go through all this crap when selling a lawn mower or a knife at a garage sale?
Captains1911
Member
Your analogy is failure. We are talking about items that require state and federal registration.
If you don't want to keep records of your private FIREARM sales, that's your right, but don't be an idiot and claim that having them is pointless.
oneounceload
member
FAIL Captain - my guns require none of those, try again
Your OCD paranoia is pointless and calling sane folks idiots is the sign of your own shortcomings
Your OCD paranoia is pointless and calling sane folks idiots is the sign of your own shortcomings
dogtown tom
Member
FYI there is no Federal registration of firearms.......and precious few states have gun registration.
Trunk Monkey
member
I am sure that this pissing contest has been played out numerous times all over the internet.
Bottom line; it’s your gun sell it (within the confines of the law) how you want. I don’t think a receipt of some kind is a horrible idea but you aren’t getting my DL/ CHP/ SSN or copies thereof, if that doesn’t work for you find another buyer.
I’ve said it before but if the police show up at my door asking questions about any crime I’m contacting my lawyer and asking for a guarantee of immunity from prosecution before I open my mouth.
Bottom line; it’s your gun sell it (within the confines of the law) how you want. I don’t think a receipt of some kind is a horrible idea but you aren’t getting my DL/ CHP/ SSN or copies thereof, if that doesn’t work for you find another buyer.
I’ve said it before but if the police show up at my door asking questions about any crime I’m contacting my lawyer and asking for a guarantee of immunity from prosecution before I open my mouth.
leadcounsel
member
A big pissing contest for sure....
There actually IS federal registration. It typically ends at the gun dealer and the person that buys the gun... there is a form of registration right there...
For those that don't do a BOS... do YOU want the paperwork trail to go cold with YOU when there is a crime committed with your gun?
Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...
Last I checked, while they may be used as unconventional weapons, law mowers and kitchen knives aren't 1) under widespread state and national scrutiny, with sentence enhancers for use in the commission of a crime, and 2) aren't the weapons of choice by most violent or mass murder criminals, and 3) most things aren't serialized with databases like guns for tracing/tracking purposes or require background checks to prevent prohibited persons from buying/possessing. You don't have to complete a form and background check when buying a knife or lawnmower from a dealer...
If YOU want to be blissfully ignorant and sell to whomever without any assurances that is a bad idea. I realize not many here are suggesting that, but at the end of the day, that practice is what causes prohibited persons access and ultimately stops FTF transfers like what happened in Colorado. Not saying a BOS is a silver bullet, but asking for one can drive off the suspicious persons.
There actually IS federal registration. It typically ends at the gun dealer and the person that buys the gun... there is a form of registration right there...
For those that don't do a BOS... do YOU want the paperwork trail to go cold with YOU when there is a crime committed with your gun?
Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...
Last I checked, while they may be used as unconventional weapons, law mowers and kitchen knives aren't 1) under widespread state and national scrutiny, with sentence enhancers for use in the commission of a crime, and 2) aren't the weapons of choice by most violent or mass murder criminals, and 3) most things aren't serialized with databases like guns for tracing/tracking purposes or require background checks to prevent prohibited persons from buying/possessing. You don't have to complete a form and background check when buying a knife or lawnmower from a dealer...
If YOU want to be blissfully ignorant and sell to whomever without any assurances that is a bad idea. I realize not many here are suggesting that, but at the end of the day, that practice is what causes prohibited persons access and ultimately stops FTF transfers like what happened in Colorado. Not saying a BOS is a silver bullet, but asking for one can drive off the suspicious persons.
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