How do you sell a gun?

[denton]

I think you are trying to suggest ways to meet your moral and your legal obligations when you transfer a firearm. And if you think that is best, then I have no quarrel with your judgement.

My judgement is that a written record of a transfer is much more of a legal liability than most people suppose.

Suppose you've done 5 face to face transfers in the last year. And suppose that one of them is used in a crime. The police come to you, and ask about a particular model and serial number. You proudly show them how responsible you have been, and pull out the (flinch!) Bill of Sale.

Now your troubles begin.

You may have legal exposure in that a zealous BATFE agent might commend you for your diligence, then casually ask, "Do you have any more of these?" If you say that you do, and show them to him, he may very well file charges against you for selling firearms without an FFL. It doesn't matter that such an action is clearly unethical, and that you haven't violated the law, as written. Some agents simply don't care. They are graded on how many prosecutions they can generate and on how much cash they can extort from people in the way of civil forfeitures. You've sold more than one or two firearms, and you've made a little money at it. Especially if you and your pard chip in to rent a sales table at a gun show (rented retail space), that's close enough in the minds of some agents. There is no bright line definition of how many guns you can legally sell per year and still not be in the business of buying and selling guns.

When the BATFE leaks news of this to the media, you will be portrayed as a shady back-street dealer operating outside the law.

You could call that an unintended consequence of the way our system is set up, or an unintended consequence of trying to do your civic duty.

You are much better off if you can honestly answer that you checked for state residency, and didn't keep any records since none are required. If the police ask you to identify the buyer's photo, and can, that will help. If you're asked how many guns you've sold, then you should honestly answer that you don't actually know, but it's about one every year or two to improve your collection. Then there is nothing to tempt a zealous agent.

Most of us think of the police as being on our side. We obey the law, we pay our taxes, and we do our share in the community. So usually they are on our side. However, you cannot assume that all enforcement agents are honest, understand the law or even are very bright. Especially don't assume that they are on your side. Some of them are just as happy to get you convicted as they are to get a real felon convicted.

Far from protecting you, a (flinch!) Bill of Sale is a legal liability, and the chances that it will help solve a crime are close to zero.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...

With a name like leadcounsel I would have thought you were a lawyer. I don't have to answer any questions ever

You may have legal exposure in that a zealous BATFE agent might commend you for your diligence, then casually ask, "Do you have any more of these?" If you say that you do, and show them to him, he may very well file charges against you for selling firearms without an FFL. It doesn't matter that such an action is clearly unethical, and that you haven't violated the law

Which is why you get a guarantee of imunity from prosecution before you talk to the cops

 

[Captains1911]

FYI there is no Federal registration of firearms.......and precious few states have gun registration.

Transfer paperwork is completed when a gun is sold by an FFL dealer, linking that gun to a person, and the ATF requires dealers to keep these records a minimum of 20 years. Registration, transfer, WHATEVER. This doesn't happen with lawn mowers and knives.

 

[Captains1911]

For those that don't do a BOS... do YOU want the paperwork trail to go cold with YOU when there is a crime committed with your gun?

Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...

This is exactly what happened to me as already explained, and having that piece of paper with information pertaining to the buyer made the situation a breeze, not to mention it made the feds job easier and they were appreciative. I'm not saying that it would have gone completely different if I didn't have it, but it sure as hell did not hurt and I was more comfortable having it. People's failure to understand this is beyond me.

 

[Captains1911]

FAIL Captain - my guns require none of those, try again

Your OCD paranoia is pointless and calling sane folks idiots is the sign of your own shortcomings

This has nothing to with paranoia and everything to do with common sense.

 

[Sam1911]

[Folks, simmer yerselves down now, y'hear? I understand that it can be frustrating to debate with someone who does not accept your beliefs, but there's a difference between debate and insult, and we've gotten way too far over that line. Become very polite with each other or take some time off. Capisce?]

For those that don't do a BOS... do YOU want the paperwork trail to go cold with YOU when there is a crime committed with your gun?

As I've said before, I am opposed to tracking of firearms in any way, and want MILLIONS of "unregistered" firearms out there in the hands of the public. I will break the "trail" at every possible opportunity. The exceedingly unlikely possibility that a gun I once owned might be used in a crime someday (and that my link in the custody trail might somehow help the investigation) is a tiny risk that I'd willingly take -- as must anyone who is not for registration/tracking of firearms.

 

[Snag]

Never knew there was so much debate over paperwork involved with a firearms sale. Me I don't mind a bit of paperwork when and if I buy or sell a gun to a private citizen. If I ever did end up with a stolen weapon somehow, or someone I sold a weapon to commited a crime I don't end up answering uncomfortable questions.

You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.

 

[kcshooter]

You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name.

Which is why I don't feel it's even remotely equivalent to the sale of a lawn mower or knife.

 

[Sam1911]

...a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name.

And if they bother to come ask you about it you say, "I sold it to another person. Sorry, I don't (or do) know his/her name." That's IT. There are no "uncomfortable questions" to answer.

"I did have it. I don't any more. I sold it to someone who I had no reason to believe was prohibited from owning it or who was a resident of another state, and that was 'x' years ago. I have no other information for you. Good luck with your investigation, and have a nice day."

A lot of folks enjoy worrying that having once owned a gun could link you to a crime someday committed using that gun. But the fact is, vanishingly few (like none, give or take) criminal cases ever have hinged on the simple fact that the convicted once owned that gun. That isn't enough evidence of anything to even charge someone, let along convict them of a crime. If there is no evidence that you were at the scene of the crime, and that you DID the crime, then believing you could be convicted of it just because of a 4473 is goofy.

 

[kcshooter]

And if they bother to come ask you about it you say, "I sold it to another person. Sorry, I don't (or do) know his/her name."

I understand that, but what if the person I sold it to was the person who, minuscule as the chance my be, did commit a crime with it?

I would feel better if I could give that person's name to law enforcement.


But that's just me.
And since it's my gun, it gets sold on my terms.

 

[Captains1911]

You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.

Exactly, it seems so logical to some of us..... and my personal experience has proven it to be valuable, to me at least. I think I need to punch out of this thread.

 

[Sam1911]

I understand that, but what if the person I sold it to was the person who, minuscule as the chance my be, did commit a crime with it?
I would feel better if I could give that person's name to law enforcement.

Certainly. If you can give them a name to help solve a crime, ok. My points were that 1) you aren't putting yourself at heightened LEGAL risk because you don't keep records, and 2) there may be philosophcal reasons for not keeping the chain of custody intact, though the remote possibility of minutely slowing a criminal investigation by not having that information might be one possible drawback.

As I said elsewhere, each of us has to balance the competing interests in our own way and do whichever thing is a) lawful and, b) lets us sleep better at night.

And since it's my gun, it gets sold on my terms.

Certainly so. You can ask for a DNA sample and proof of Top Secret security clearance if you so desire. Or, you may sell via the mail to a resident on the other end of your state whom you've never met. All legal, and all up to you.

 

[oneounceload]

Transfer paperwork is completed when a gun is sold by an FFL dealer, linking that gun to a person, and the ATF requires dealers to keep these records a minimum of 20 years. Registration, transfer, WHATEVER. This doesn't happen with lawn mowers and knives.

More guns are sold by private individuals than OTC, so again, no registration - but if you want to try and cover every possibility, no matter how remote or far-fetched, please go ahead - the rest of us will live in a sane world where trying to prevent the sky from falling isn't on the agenda for that day

 

[denton]

I understand that, but what if the person I sold it to was the person who, minuscule as the chance my be, did commit a crime with it?

This is really the core issue, I think.

I think the reason we don't agree is that some argue the point from a personal responsibility viewpoint, and others argue it from a legal standpoint. And I think that the people on this board are unusually personally responsible.

Our federal and state legislatures have met, weighted all that, and have made laws to specify how we are to act and what our responsibilities are. So I think the appropriate approach is to follow the law.

The law does not specify an obligation to keep records of in-state transfers (federal and most states).

Note that both New Zealand (years ago) and Canada (recently) have scrapped gun registration schemes mainly because they were not useful in solving crimes.

I don't keep records, and I sleep with a clear conscience knowing that I have fully complied with my obligations, as determined by federal and state legislatures, and that I am not creating a needless legal liability for myself.

There is no one right answer to the question.

I think we've given the issues a good and fair airing. Everybody can consider the issues raised, make their own informed decision, and also sleep with a clear conscience knowing that they have thought it through and done what they think appropriate.

 

[dogtown tom]

leadcounsel ....There actually IS federal registration. It typically ends at the gun dealer and the person that buys the gun... there is a form of registration right there...

Absolutely, 100% wrong.
The Form 4473 that you complete at a dealer is a Firearms Transaction Record. Its purpose is to document the transfer of a firearm from a licensed dealer to an eligible purchaser. Its a RECORD of the TRANSACTION, not a registration of the firearm.

Although the Form 4473 includes information on the firearm itself it should be noted that many firearms made before 1968 did not have serial numbers and as such no serial number is recorded in the dealers bound book or on the 4473.

While you may think the 4473 is a "form" of registration, it would be almost laughable to consider it so. ATF is prohibited by Federal law from compiling a database of 4473's. After twenty years the FFL can destroy those old 4473's.
And as there is no Federal law prohibiting private transactions between residents of the sme state, the "registration" you claim exists is invalid when the buyer subsequently trades, sells or gifts that gun to another person.

As there is no Federal "registration", there is also no need to document those trades, sales or gifts.

While ATF DOES use firearm serial numbers to "trace" the history of a firearm, it is of debatable value. If a firearm is recovered at a crime scene it can be traced to a manufacturer, who will tell the ATF what distributor it was transferred to, who in turn will tell what local dealer it went to. That local dealer will be able to research his bound book & 4473's to identify who acquired the firearm from him. If that buyer subsequently sold, traded or gifted that firearm to an unknown person or does not have contact info on that buyer...........the trace ends. Thats it, thats all.

If you buy a USED firearm from a dealer that trail was interrupted after the first nonlicensee to nonlicensee transaction.

Captains1911 Transfer paperwork is completed when a gun is sold by an FFL dealer, linking that gun to a person, and the ATF requires dealers to keep these records a minimum of 20 years. Registration, transfer, WHATEVER. This doesn't happen with lawn mowers and knives.

It doesn't happen with lawnmowers, knives or transactions between nonlicensees..........yet.

While it may "link" that firearm purchase to a person, ATF/FBI/etc are well aware that there is NO FEDERAL LAW prohibiting private sales between residents of the same state and that NO FEDERAL LAW requires any record of those transaction. Heck, even the Brady Campaign screams about the "gun show loophole". (which isn't a loophole.....its a freedom and right to be enjoyed)

Snag ....You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.

That occurs on TV and in the movies and does not happen in the overwhelming majority of states. As there is no Federal gun registration, nor a national database of firearm serial numbers your scenario can only exist in a handful of states.

 

[leadcounsel]

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...

Posted by Truck Monkey
With a name like leadcounsel I would have thought you were a lawyer. I don't have to answer any questions ever

Providing a copy of proof of how you disposed of a gun = simple, quick, not costly.

Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc. and the trail may have ended with you.

 

[Sam1911]

Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc. and the trail may have ended with you.

WHAT? You don't HAVE to provide any documentary proof of anything. How are you "fighting the system?" "I sold it." That's all you need say.

Selling it it legal. Not documenting anything about the sale is perfectly legal.

If you weren't AT the scene of a crime, and didn't COMMIT the crime, you aren't going to be charged and/or convicted for that crime just because you once owned that gun.

I'd like to see one plausible scenario wherein poor innocent gunowner Jim gets sent up the river for a killing because he once bought that gun from a dealer. No prosecutor would even attempt to make such a charge without some kind of evidence that poor Jim actually DID the crime.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Providing a copy of proof of how you disposed of a gun = simple, quick, not costly.

Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc. and the trail may have ended with you.

You haven't addressed my main point which is, I'm not required to answer any questions period.

 

[CajunBass]

Your analogy is failure. We are talking about items that require state and federal registration.

I see you live in Virginia. So do I. I have since the day I was born, back during the Truman administration.

Would you care to explain the procedure for registering a gun in the Commonwealth of Virginia? Somehow or other, I seem to have missed that in spite of the several hundred guns I've owned over the years.

We'll just skip the federal issue for now.

 

[Captains1911]

I see you live in Virginia. So do I. I have since the day I was born, back during the Truman administration.

Would you care to explain the procedure for registering a gun in the Commonwealth of Virginia? Somehow or other, I seem to have missed that in spite of the several hundred guns I've owned over the years.

We'll just skip the federal issue for now.

As already explained, I was referring to the paperwork filled out when you purchase a gun from a dealer, in VA there are both state and federal forms. Those forms link the gun to a person. If I sell a gun that federal paperwork links to me, I require the buyer to sign a BOS. The idea that it could do anything other than protect me is complete and utter BS in my opinion. It has worked in my favor once already, as the "unlikely event" that someone comes asking questions became a reality for me. Do as you will, I will do as I will.

 

[denton]

Any action you take carries some risk. It's up to everyone to evaluate the risks and choose their own path.

Captains1911 chose his path, and he's pleased with the result. I am happy that it went well for him.

Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc.

However, this is not something any of us need to worry about. Sams1911 has perfectly explained the proper response and its consequences. You don't need an attorney, and you are not in danger of prosecution.

Good Lord, how did we ever get along before guns had serial numbers and FFLs were mandated?

It's not an issue that deserves a lot of angst!

 

[Snag]

You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.

That occurs on TV and in the movies and does not happen in the overwhelming majority of states. As there is no Federal gun registration, nor a national database of firearm serial numbers your scenario can only exist in a handful of states.

All I know is at one time I purchased a pistol in Washington state, many years later I moved from Washington to California and sold the pistol to my nephew who also lived in California. He later moved to Montana or Idaho for Lineman's school, I forget which. While there he had some run in with law enforcement where they ran the serial number on that gun. Next question for my relative was why is "so and so's" name on this gun and not yours? Once he explained that the officer told him that he should get me next time we see each other and go to an FFL to do paperwork so the gun is in his name, not mine. The officer said he knew where, when, and by who the gun was purchased.

So anyway.....yeah. It's not a scenario or something I seen on the boobtube.

Just to add, I'm not one for doing any kind of paperwork, I would rather not. However, most of the firearm transaction I have made have been between relatives, and if doing the paperwork possibly saves them a bit of hassle down the road then fine.

 

[brickeyee]

Once he explained that the officer told him that he should get me next time we see each other and go to an FFL to do paperwork so the gun is in his name, not mine.

Tell him to stop blowing sunshine up everyone's butt.

There is no need to do this kind of BS.

Once the police have a make and serial number it its not hard to trace to thefirst point of retail sale,

After that it get VERY hard.

Even if another FFL had possession of the gun and logged it in and out, there is nothing to tie HIS records to the manufacturer's records.

 

[Sam1911]

Tell him to stop blowing sunshine up everyone's butt.

Gonna have to agree with that.

At the very least, it must have been more than a little "run-in" with the law.

A police officer in a state (that doesn't have gun registration) has no possible way of tracing that sort of information in a simple way. If a gun is taken into police custody during a criminal investigation, the manufacturer of that gun can be contacted and asked to retrieve and provide their sale information for that firearm with that serial number.

That sale information will tell them what wholesaler or distributor they sent that gun to. The wholesaler or distributor is then contacted and can research what dealer they sold that gun to.

Then that dealer will be contacted. He can search back through his 4473 forms from that year and (assuming 20 years has not passed, so he still has those records) he can divulge who the original purchaser was.

This all takes time and requires some legwork on the part of investigators. It is not the sort of thing that is available to an officer from his dispatcher, on the side of the road, or in anything like a cursory check.

So somewhere between the officer, your deputy, and you some confusion has been inserted into the story.

(To be more blunt, unless this gun was believed to be used in a CRIME, this story just didn't happen. And if a gun is used in a crime and the officers have a gun and a SUSPECT, there's no point in running a trace. The trace can only help them locate a suspect, and it a very poor resource for that.)

Once he explained that the officer told him that he should get me next time we see each other and go to an FFL to do paperwork so the gun is in his name, not mine.

And that would have been PERFECTLY USELESS. If he HAD done so, that officer's trace information would have come right back to the same point: you as the original purchaser of that gun.

4473s are not LINKED in any way. All it is is a record of one transaction at one moment. A new one doesn't erase the old one, and an old one does not somehow link forward and create a trail to the next one.

Buy a gun from dealer A today. Walk into dealer B tomorrow and sell that gun to someone else on a 4473. Dealer A has no idea that you ever sold that gun, and any traces on that gun still come right back to you as the original purchaser. If YOU get questioned about it, and you can remember who/what/when, you could send them along to Dealer B and tell them there's a new 4473 'cause that gun was sold to someone else. But if they can't find you, or you've forgotten, (or you sold the gun privately to someone else) the trail goes dead.

 

[Snag]

At the very least, it must have been more than a little "run-in" with the law.

Could of been. Didn't sound like it when I first heard the story, but yeah I wasn't there so it's seconds hand info. I was given the impression it was a traffic stop and when asked "do you have any weapons in the vehicle" my nephew said yes.