How does all lead bullets perform on thinned skin game?

[CraigC]

I have a purely selfish interest in my health and the health of the other people that would eat game I shot. I have no detectable level of lead in my blood and I want to keep it that way. Learn about the effects of lead on health and you will want to avoid eating it too.

You'd have to ingest a literal crap-ton of solid lead to have it in your blood. You're not going to get it from eating critters shot with lead bullets. There is FAR more risk of increasing your lead levels from inhaling the vaporized lead present when a primer is ignited or from breathing the fumes while casting bullets.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You'd have to ingest a literal crap-ton of solid lead to have it in your blood. You're not going to get it from eating critters shot with lead bullets. There is FAR more risk of increasing your lead levels from inhaling the vaporized lead present when a primer is ignited or from breathing the fumes while casting bullets.

Maybe not a crap ton...
https://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/
https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/pha/LeadFragmentsinVenison/Venison and Lead HC 110408.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/public...n_blood_lead_levels_and_wild_game_consumption

 

[alsaqr]

For the past 20 years the majority of my hog and deer hunting was done using .50 and .54 muzzleloaders firing sabot bullets or patched round balls. The 270 grain .430 hard cast bullet with large meplat is a super hog killer. Using a crush rib sabot my velocity is just over 1,850 fps. Most large hogs die within 100 yards. While still hunting one afternoon, i killed three hogs, each weighing over 250 pounds, using that bullet; three shots.

At moderate ranges .50 caliber and larger patched round balls are great deer killers. Unless heavy bone is hit the round ball usually exits.

 

[CraigC]

Maybe not a crap ton...

Don't those studies assume the lead exposure comes from consumption?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Don't those studies assume the lead exposure comes from consumption?

I'm sorry, I missed your validation of crap ton somewhere. Isn't that an imaginary concept without any basis what-so-ever? Now, if you can come up with something that shows just how much lead you can eat and not show an elevation of lead levels, let me know.

However, to answer your point, intentionally feeding people a known toxin to look at levels in the blood would be dubious, if not illegal. A correlation was found in the studies between people who ate wild game with elevated lead levels versus those who did not which had lower levels.

An no, you don't have to consume a crap ton of it. You don't have to eat much of it, which is why lead solder is no longer allowed in plumbing and lead is no longer used in paint. The point is, you don't have to consume much of it.

 

[jmorris]

The only reason I made the assertion I did in #25, is because I have my lead levels checked every year as part of my physical. The only time it went high was when I began shooting indoor matches once a week. I quit that and the levels went back down over time, despite shooting outdoors, recycling fired bullets for the lead, recasting them, reloading them to shoot again and eating animals killed by them.

 

[Mycin]

I'm sorry, I missed your validation of crap ton somewhere. Isn't that an imaginary concept without any basis what-so-ever? Now, if you can come up with something that shows just how much lead you can eat and not show an elevation of lead levels, let me know.

However, to answer your point, intentionally feeding people a known toxin to look at levels in the blood would be dubious, if not illegal. A correlation was found in the studies between people who ate wild game with elevated lead levels versus those who did not which had lower levels.

An no, you don't have to consume a crap ton of it. You don't have to eat much of it, which is why lead solder is no longer allowed in plumbing and lead is no longer used in paint. The point is, you don't have to consume much of it.

Correlation does not imply causation. Look it up.

 

[CraigC]

I'm sorry, I missed your validation of crap ton somewhere. Isn't that an imaginary concept without any basis what-so-ever? Now, if you can come up with something that shows just how much lead you can eat and not show an elevation of lead levels, let me know.

However, to answer your point, intentionally feeding people a known toxin to look at levels in the blood would be dubious, if not illegal. A correlation was found in the studies between people who ate wild game with elevated lead levels versus those who did not which had lower levels.

An no, you don't have to consume a crap ton of it. You don't have to eat much of it, which is why lead solder is no longer allowed in plumbing and lead is no longer used in paint. The point is, you don't have to consume much of it.

And the articles you posted basically provided nothing useful, certainly not contradictory. The point being, the biggest risk in lead poisoning is not consumption of lead bullet fragments but inhalation of lead vapor. The greater risk are fumes created when the primer is detonated and that you're exposed to when melting lead to cast bullets. In fact, you would have to consume A LOT of lead for it to ever be an issue.

As I said, the studies you linked to, which provide no useful data, assume that the lead present in any of the subjects tested came from consumption and arbitrarily precluded any other source.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Correlation does not imply causation. Look it up.

Notice that I didn't say that it did? Nope, you didn't. Look it up.

"Correlation does not imply causation" is commonly used concept in statistical analysis. It is phrased as an absolute when it actually isn't, which is funny for statistics. There is an exception. Correlation does not imply causation except when it does. For example, there is a very strong correlation between complete decapitation of living people and their subsequent and immediate death. In fact, it is absolute. Nobody has survived such and lived to tell about it. So not only is there a strong correlation between complete decapitation of a living person and subsequent death, it is a causation. Complete decapitation does cause death, correlated 100%.

If that doesn't work for you, this primer should help. It goes into why correlation may not imply causation.

And the articles you posted basically provided nothing useful, certainly not contradictory. The point being, the biggest risk in lead poisoning is not consumption of lead bullet fragments but inhalation of lead vapor. The greater risk are fumes created when the primer is detonated and that you're exposed to when melting lead to cast bullets. In fact, you would have to consume A LOT of lead for it to ever be an issue.

As I said, the studies you linked to, which provide no useful data, assume that the lead present in any of the subjects tested came from consumption and arbitrarily precluded any other source.

Where to start. I appreciate that you don't like the information from the study and are demanding of more, yet repeatedly make a "crap ton" (I really like this phrase and can see why you chose to use it) of unsupported claims such as needing to consume a crap ton of lead before it shows up in the blood and that a greater risk for lead in the system occurs elsewhere.

However, the CDC article went through reviews with all the participants to identify sources of lead to which they may have been exposed. They did their homework to find a cause. You may not like the result, but then again, by your argument, you are just assuming that the greater risk for lead in the blood (as tested) comes from fumes when the primer is detonated, or by being exposed to fumes when smelting. Heck, you are assuming that lead got into the blood from those processes.

 

[CraigC]

I'm assuming nothing. My problem with the results is the manner in which they were gathered and then interpreted. IMHO, you are only looking to confirm the opinion you already had. I researched this years ago. Much of it related to the California condor and all that nonsense. I certainly have no desire to rehash it all over again. It's a proven fact, however inconvenient, that inhalation of lead vapor is a FAR greater risk than consumption. People have only been eating critters shot with lead projectiles for a few hundred years. So, "whatever dude".

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Here are some more articles linking game food and increased lead levels in humans. Thanks to Feenix over on Longrangehunting for the sources.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=printable&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005330

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00128-009-9647-2

https://science.peregrinefund.org/legacy-sites/conference-lead/PDF/0307 Tranel.pdf

https://britishbirds.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/76818-OLS-Report-final.pdf#page=29

 

[LOLBELL]

If eating meat shot with lead was so bad for you I would have died of lead poisoning years ago. Virtually all the meat I have eaten for my 60+ years on this rock called earth has been killed with a lead bullet. Cows, hogs, deer, elk, squirrels, dove, quail, everything. Bloodwork done at my yearly physical shows no lead, and I might also add that I cast.

This is not from an article written by someone or a paper written for a scientific study done in a far away land. This is my first hand experience in a lifestyle I have chosen since birth.

 

[illinoisburt]

Last time I checked, hundreds of thousands of deer are killed annually with shotgun slugs made of soft lead. Many leading authorities recommend them for protection from dangerous animals here in North America. So, yes, lead projectiles can do the job just fine. As for the health concerns, those fragmentation studies are done with high velocity centerfires using bullets generally known to fragment. It's all about picking the right bullet for the job. Watching a few ballistics gel tests will quickly show the differences. If you are personally worried about fragments, choose a different style of bullet and carry on.

 

[HB]

They ruin a lot of meat. Lead is toxic. Shoot monolithics or don't eat.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch/Lead_in_Venison_for_Families_310195_7.pdf

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I wouldn’t drink the water in Michigan either if I was worried about lead

 

[H&Hhunter]

Meanwhile,

I’ve had good luck with all lead bullets on thin skinned game. I think this thread was originally about something to do with that subject.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Just like the title says. Have any of you used lead cast bullets, 45/70, 44 mag, 357 etc, either from a rifle or handgun on deer or similar sized game? Will it break bone and penetrate consistently at close to moderate distances, such as within 100 yards? I assume it will if you have enough velocity but I've never done it personally and always look for first hand experience. Thanks.

Just as easy as any other bullet. Shot a ton of deer with them from my Hawken rifle, my 44 mag rifle AND pistol, 357, and my 45-70.

Where do people get these ideas that it wouldn't?

 

[LOLBELL]

Meanwhile,

I’ve had good luck with all lead bullets on thin skinned game. I think this thread was originally about something to do with that subject.

Back on subject, I have had great luck with lead in hand guns and a 35 Rem. I am a meat hunter so this is on medium sized Alabama does.

A 270 grn in 45c, a 250 grn in 44 and a 215 grn in 41, all Keith style wad cutters at about 900 fps has passed through everything I have shot and kicked up dirt on the other side while leaving a blood trail a blind man could follow. Platform is Super Blackhawk Hunters, scoped. The 35 gets a 200 grn RNFP GC at 1900 fps.Platform is a Marlin 336, scoped.

When I have done my part the lead has done it’s part.

I might add that I don’t see a lot of bullet fragmenting so I eat the meat right up to the hole.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I’ve used wide meplate hard cast in the .45-70 and .44 mag on hogs and had absolutely devastating terminal performance.

In the .45-70 I use a 405 Gr hard cast flat nose at about 1800 FPS. In the .44 I was shooting a 330 Gr HCFN out of a 16” carbine at about 1400 FPS. We seldom recover a bullet even on heavy, thick, old boars.

I was casting my own bullets out of regular old soft lead for my .470 NE. It’s a 510 Gr round nosed gas checked bullet. I was pushing them at about 2100 FPS and as you might imagine they were absolutely demolishing any sized hog you’d shoot them with.

On a muzzle loader I’ve killed a few deer with my favorite lead bullet in .50 Cal. That is a Parker productions 440 Gr hollow point hydra con. Even on small, soft critters like a mule deer those thing open up and penetrate leaving a massive exit wound and a heavy blood trail.

I think my ML was shooting those at about 1400 FPS.