How does answering Unknown on Question 10 of a 4473 affect your application?

[AlexanderA]

You can google most city websites and check addresses and maps to see what is considered inside city limits and outside city limits.

As my example from Virginia shows, before you can answer whether or not you live within a "city," you first have to define what a "city" is. Is an incorporated "town" a "city"? Is there a minimum population to be considered a "city"? What if you live in a crossroads hamlet of 100 people?

I live in, and pay taxes to, a town that under Virginia law is not a "city." How am I supposed to answer Question 10 on the Form 4473?

 

[dogtown tom]

As my example from Virginia shows, before you can answer whether or not you live within a "city," you first have to define what a "city" is. Is an incorporated "town" a "city"? Is there a minimum population to be considered a "city"? What if you live in a crossroads hamlet of 100 people?

I live in, and pay taxes to, a town that under Virginia law is not a "city." How am I supposed to answer Question 10 on the Form 4473?

Oh please, it isn't rocket surgery.
For fifty seven years, the question about the buyers residence has asked what "city" the buyer resides......and no one blinked, went apoplectic, had a brain freeze or stroked out about what city they lived in. If they lived in a town or village they put that in the "city" box. Now that the form asks if you live within the city limits of that city? OMG! OMG! What iz a city?

Right now, the question asks:

10. Current State of Residence and Address (U.S. postal abbreviations are acceptable. Cannot be a post office box.)
Number and Street Address
City
Reside in City Limits? Yes No Unknown
State
ZIP Code
County/Parish/Borough

Do you think buyers in Louisiana freaked out for a half century because the form didn't mention "parish" or Pennsylvanians because "borough" wasn't an option? No, they didn't.
Anyone that has that much difficulty understanding that city/town/village are synonymous for the sake of the damn form will likely have difficulty opening the box the gun is in.

This thread makes me sad.

 

[chickasaw_hunter]

I recently bought a silencer from Capitol Armory in Texas. During that process I had to answer that question. The Post Office sez I live in a nearby city. I live in Colorado. I actually live in the county. I think this makes a difference because they say they are required to notify the local police/sheriff of my purchase. So, in my case if I said I was in the city they would send a registered letter to the Chief of Police of a city where I don't reside. In my case they are sending it to my county Sheriff. In that instance the answer to the question would seem to be important.
Of course common sense doesn't enter into any of this process, so we can just put that away and jump thru the hoops put in front of us to make us safe. (Yes that was sarcastic.)

 

[AlexanderA]

For fifty seven years, the question about the buyers residence has asked what "city" the buyer resides......and no one blinked, went apoplectic, had a brain freeze or stroked out about what city they lived in. If they lived in a town or village they put that in the "city" box. Now that the form asks if you live within the city limits of that city? OMG! OMG! What iz a city?

The "city" box is easy. You just enter the city or town that is part of your postal address. The problem is that postal addresses don't necessarily follow the actual jurisdictional boundaries. You might have a postal address that says a certain town, but you might actually live in another town, or no town.

The form attempts to rectify this by asking if you live within the city limits. But this just leads to more confusion. I would say that the ATF gets a failing grade in designing that form.

 

[natman]

I asked my LGS about that 1 time. He said put no. It's for folks who live in larger cities. He said like Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Harrisburg as examples here in Pa.

He was wrong. The question is really whether you live in an incorporated area with its own police department or an unincorporated area with a county sheriff. The answer would be "Yes" in Philadelphia, but it would also be "Yes" in Punxsutawney.

​

 

[wayneinFL]

Oh please, it isn't rocket surgery.
For fifty seven years, the question about the buyers residence has asked what "city" the buyer resides......and no one blinked, went apoplectic, had a brain freeze or stroked out about what city they lived in. If they lived in a town or village they put that in the "city" box. Now that the form asks if you live within the city limits of that city? OMG! OMG! What iz a city?

Right now, the question asks:

Do you think buyers in Louisiana freaked out for a half century because the form didn't mention "parish" or Pennsylvanians because "borough" wasn't an option? No, they didn't.
Anyone that has that much difficulty understanding that city/town/village are synonymous for the sake of the damn form will likely have difficulty opening the box the gun is in.

This thread makes me sad.

I see Alexander's point on this. The Town of Morristown is located within Hanover Township within Shelby County, Indiana. You could be outside the town limits of Morristown, but still be in Hanover Township. Suppose you answered "yes" to residing within city limits because you're in Hanover Township limits and put "Morristown" under city, because that's your postal address. I don't think the ATF wants that, but I'm not the ATF.

Some townships have a governing body and might have codes and an administration to cover things like school or fire departments. The townships within those towns may provide other servives and have their own codes.

He was wrong. The question is really whether you live in an incorporated area with its own police department or an unincorporated area with a county sheriff. The answer would be "Yes" in Philadelphia, but it would also be "Yes" in Punxsutawney.

Is that really the question? If you live in an incorporated city that doesn't have it's own police department, it's still asking if you're in city limits.

I think there are plenty of reasons why someone might put "unknown" under the city limits question.

 

[dogtown tom]

The "city" box is easy. You just enter the city or town that is part of your postal address.

The Form 4473 does not ask for the buyers mailing address, but the current residence address.

The problem is that postal addresses don't necessarily follow the actual jurisdictional boundaries.

Which is exactly why the form asks for "Reside in city limits".

You might have a postal address that says a certain town, but you might actually live in another town, or no town.

The form attempts to rectify this by asking if you live within the city limits. But this just leads to more confusion. I would say that the ATF gets a failing grade in designing that form.

Again, if the buyer does not know whether they live within the city limits of the city THEY JUST WROTE DOWN..........answer "Unknown".
It can't be that difficult.

 

[dogtown tom]

..... Suppose you answered "yes" to residing within city limits because you're in Hanover Township limits and put "Morristown" under city, because that's your postal address. I don't think the ATF wants that, but I'm not the ATF.

Exactly. The question asks for residence address, not postal address. There are plenty of unincorporated areas that may be close to another city and the residents regularly refer to themselves as living in "Xville". If they don't actually reside within the city limits of "Xville" then just answer "No", if they dont know what the boundaries are........"Unknown".

I think there are plenty of reasons why someone might put "unknown" under the city limits question.

I think there's only one reason you might check "Unknown"...........that reason being you don't know if you live in the city limits or not. Why you don't know is irrelevant.

 

[wayneinFL]

Exactly. The question asks for residence address, not postal address. There are plenty of unincorporated areas that may be close to another city and the residents regularly refer to themselves as living in "Xville". If they don't actually reside within the city limits of "Xville" then just answer "No", if they dont know what the boundaries are........"Unknown".

The question asks for residence address, not postal address- so does the address I put on the 4473 have to match my ID? Let's say all my ID that establishes residency like driver's license, passport, utility bills all say Fort Lauderdale, but I'm actually in the city limits of Tamarac. Should I write "Tamarac" on the 4473 and answer "yes", within city limits? Or "Fort Lauderdale", consistent with my ID, and "no"? "Unknown" would be a lie, because I know I'm in city limits.

Also, does ATF consider a township in Indiana to be a city? Does it consider a township in Pennsylvania to be a city? Towns are obviously incorporated as cities, but townships can cover multiple towns or no incorporated towns at all.

 

[dogtown tom]

The question asks for residence address, not postal address- so does the address I put on the 4473 have to match my ID?

No, and any dealer who tells a buyer to write what is on the DL may be causing the buyer to commit a felony.
A buyer/transferee MUST put his current actual residence address on Que.10. If he writes in the address on his DL "just to make it match"......it violates federal law.

Every Form 4473 has instructions:
"Question 26.a. Identification: Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence, and age of the transferee/buyer. The transferee/buyer must provide a valid government-issued photo identification document to the transferor/seller that contains the transferee’s/buyer’s name, residence address, and date of birth. A driver’s license or an identification card issued by a State is acceptable.

Social Security cards are not acceptable because no address, date of birth, or photograph is shown on the cards. Identification documents such as a driver’s license or identification card issued with binary, non-binary, or no sex designation may be used as an identification document.A combination of government-issued documents may be provided. See instructions for question 26.b. Supplemental Documentation.

If the transferee/buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his/her permanent duty station is located, but he/she has a driver’s license from another State, the transferor/seller must list the transferee’s/buyer’s military identification card in response to question 26.a., in addition to PCS orders as indicated in 26.c."

So if your government issued photo ID does not match your current residence address? Then the next instruction tells the buyer and dealer how to use a combination of documents to satisfy the identification requirement.
"Question 26.b. Supplemental Documentation: Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photoidentification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee’s/buyer’s residence address. This supplemental documentation must be recorded in question 26.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented. For example, if the transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver’s license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address. A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the transferee’s/buyer’s name and current residence address."

Let's say all my ID that establishes residency like driver's license, passport, utility bills all say Fort Lauderdale, but I'm actually in the city limits of Tamarac. Should I write "Tamarac" on the 4473 and answer "yes", within city limits? Or "Fort Lauderdale", consistent with my ID, and "no"? "Unknown" would be a lie, because I know I'm in city limits.

US Passports do not show an address. Many states allow the use of a mailing address on utility bills, drivers licenses, etc........that doesn't mean they are acceptable identification documents for the purposes of acquiring firearms. Federal law is clear....the buyer must complete Que 10 with his actual residence address, and provide a government issued photo ID and/or Supplemental Documentation as described above.

If your identification documents are not correct, you might think about getting them corrected.

Also, does ATF consider a township in Indiana to be a city? Does it consider a township in Pennsylvania to be a city? Towns are obviously incorporated as cities, but townships can cover multiple towns or no incorporated towns at all.

No idea.

 

[Elkins45]

Until 1989 I didn’t have an officially-designated physical address. My mailing address was my parent’s PO box and the physical address was just a generalized description of the appearance of the house and the proximity to an intersection. I suppose if they had decided to put up an actual rural mailbox by the side of the road the Post Office would have assigned them an adddress but they never did. Now that 911 service exists there the house has an official street address.

I say all this to make the point that the first few guns I bought after I turned 18 have PO Box 477 as my address on the 4473. I’m pretty sure that was also what it said on my driver’s license. Nobody seemed to care back then, and this includes the Jackson, KY Walmart where they physically walked me out of the store with the gun after I paid. I’m not sure what I could have done if a dealer had chosen to deny the sale.

 

[wayneinFL]

Until 1989 I didn’t have an officially-designated physical address. My mailing address was my parent’s PO box and the physical address was just a generalized description of the appearance of the house and the proximity to an intersection. I suppose if they had decided to put up an actual rural mailbox by the side of the road the Post Office would have assigned them an adddress but they never did. Now that 911 service exists there the house has an official street address.

I say all this to make the point that the first few guns I bought after I turned 18 have PO Box 477 as my address on the 4473. I’m pretty sure that was also what it said on my driver’s license. Nobody seemed to care back then, and this includes the Jackson, KY Walmart where they physically walked me out of the store with the gun after I paid. I’m not sure what I could have done if a dealer had chosen to deny the sale.

I was written up by the sporting goods manager at the Port Salerno, FL Kmart in 1988 for letting a customer put a PO Box for his street address, because Kmart was fined by the ATF. At least they told me they paid a fine.

Someone cared. It just slipped by.

 

[bearcreek]

What's the difference? You are either male (X-Y) or female ( X-X). No matter what you think you are you're still M or F.

Ask the FBI. I didn't invent the 4473, or the English language, in which we've used those two words for slightly different things for hundreds of years.

 

[bearcreek]

I’m not sure what I could have done if a dealer had chosen to deny the sale.

Go to a different dealer. As we read fairly regularly on this forum, there are plenty of dealers who don't know the law well. Just have to find one that does, or doesn't, in your case.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

As my example from Virginia shows, before you can answer whether or not you live within a "city," you first have to define what a "city" is. Is an incorporated "town" a "city"? Is there a minimum population to be considered a "city"? What if you live in a crossroads hamlet of 100 people?

I live in, and pay taxes to, a town that under Virginia law is not a "city." How am I supposed to answer Question 10 on the Form 4473?

Methinks thou art overthinking this.

For the purpose of filling out a form with an address, this is like arguing the difference between a "state" and a "commonwealth".

 

[wayneinFL]

Methinks thou art overthinking this.

For the purpose of filling out a form with an address, this is like arguing the difference between a "state" and a "commonwealth".

Maybe.

Looking at my Virginia CH permit, the "Commonwealth of Virginia" lists my "state" as Florida, and my permit has the signature of the VA "Superintendent of State Police". The terms "state" and "commonwealth" seem to be used interchangeably, much like "town" and "city" are in Florida today.

The terms "town" and "city" are two different things legally in Virginia. Cities have to be over 5000 people, have the same powers as a county, and operate independent of the county. Towns over 1000 people are subject to the county. If a town is under 1000 people, I don't know what happens. It only takes 100 people to vote to become a town. I don't know if Virginia recognizes these smaller towns for the purpose of the city printed on a Virginian's government ID.

 

[AlexanderA]

The terms "town" and "city" are two different things legally in Virginia. Cities have to be over 5000 people, have the same powers as a county, and operate independent of the county. Towns over 1000 people are subject to the county. If a town is under 1000 people, I don't know what happens. It only takes 100 people to vote to become a town. I don't know if Virginia recognizes these smaller towns for the purpose of the city printed on a Virginian's government ID.

FWIW, my Virginia driver's license has my town as part of the address. No distinction is made between a "town" and a "city." In other words, they just use the postal address on the ID. On Question 10 of the Form 4473, I answer "yes" because I live within the town limits. But I can see how the use of the word "city" might be confusing.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Maybe.

Looking at my Virginia CH permit, the "Commonwealth of Virginia" lists my "state" as Florida, and my permit has the signature of the VA "Superintendent of State Police". The terms "state" and "commonwealth" seem to be used interchangeably, much like "town" and "city" are in Florida today.

The terms "town" and "city" are two different things legally in Virginia. Cities have to be over 5000 people, have the same powers as a county, and operate independent of the county. Towns over 1000 people are subject to the county. If a town is under 1000 people, I don't know what happens. It only takes 100 people to vote to become a town. I don't know if Virginia recognizes these smaller towns for the purpose of the city printed on a Virginian's government ID.

But the difference between town and city are absolutely nil when filling out a form with blocks for street, city, state, county.

And to top it off, since you brought it up, the form in question is a federal form, not a Virginia state form.

The difference you mention is only meaningful in limited legal terms which deal specifically with those differences and not what we're talking about here.

It is a distinction without a difference.

 

[rust collector]

To summarize, answer the question truthfully. Your answer does not affect the purchase process unless you are attempting to purchase a firearm that is prohibited in the jurisdiction where you reside.

We can discuss political subdivisions until the cows come home, but answers to the Reside in city limits? question are yes, no and unknown. OP did not know, selected unknown and got the green light within 5 days. All's well that ends well.