How effectivly could an armed population resist genocide?

Status
Not open for further replies.
[BLOCKQUOTE]
Justin September 23rd, 2004 04:29 PM

In this regard, I think having still and video cameras is practically as important as having a rifle. I contend that turning cameras on big brother and shining the light of truth on acts of oppression can, in and of itself, have a huge effect.

Though, to be completely honest, I don't know of any situation where this has happened, or the concept even studied.
[/BLOCKQUOTE]


David Brin wrote about that idea in 1998 called The Transparent Society.
 
In this regard, I think having still and video cameras is practically as important as having a rifle. I contend that turning cameras on big brother and shining the light of truth on acts of oppression can, in and of itself, have a huge effect.

Though, to be completely honest, I don't know of any situation where this has happened, or the concept even studied.


How about the person who filmed Rodney King being beat up? Or the Tiananmen Square fiasco? Or going back in history a bit more, Kent State?

Having cameras present didn't stop the aggression the way a rifle might have, but it sure made an impression on governments that this is not the way to behave.

Rob
 
In this regard, I think having still and video cameras is practically as important as having a rifle. I contend that turning cameras on big brother and shining the light of truth on acts of oppression can, in and of itself, have a huge effect.

Though, to be completely honest, I don't know of any situation where this has happened, or the concept even studied.


How about the person who filmed Rodney King being beat up? Or the Tiananmen Square fiasco? Or going back in history a bit more, Kent State?

Having cameras present didn't stop the aggression the way a rifle might have, but it sure made an impression on governments that this is not the way to behave. Sort of a "short term" versus "long term" effect.

As much as we shooters hate to admit it, the pen is truly mightier than the sword, at least in the long run...

Rob
 
Doesn't matter how many casualties you take, it's who has the will to fight. Viet Cong no doubt took more casualties than the US did, but it was us who lost the taste for battle.

With so many freedom loving Americans, if it got to the point where we did have to fight our own government I think we would win.

If we didn't, then it is better to die a free, fighting man then die cowering from the government.
 
if a goverment wants to participate in genocide bad enough they will, but a well armed civilian population might make them question there willingness to participate in such a campaign. still, you could arm 20,000,000 people and they would still lose to a well trained professional army. without good logistics, training, leadership and a plentifull supply of ammo they would eventually lose but not before taking a tremendous toll and the armed forces.
 
vietnam, korea, iraq these are not fair comparisons. there were way too many restrictions in these operations. if america really wanted to bring these countries to their knees we could and rather quickly. just look what germany did to france and poland. americans fight fair rebels don't, i can't blame these guys though. if korean soldiers were camped out down my street i'd lob a rocket towards them. people gota do what poeple gota do. i hate terrorist just as much as anybody, but ill take my hat off to some of those iraqies who have the balls to stick up for themsleves in the face of almost certain death. that doesn't mean i won't kill one though
 
Its not a question of resistance... Jews were targets because, from Hitler's point of view, they were cheap targets. The question is more one of "Would anyone consider genocide against an armed group, or would it be too expensive, in terms of lives and time?"


Alot of it is psychological for the civilian... If a gov't were to decide, for example, that Scouts needed to die, and its agents came to me, I'd probly be screwed no matter what.... But it would be a small comfort to take a few of them with me.
 
It would come down to who had the most determination. The Nazi's in Poland and Russia had very little to fear from the Jews in the ghetto's. They knew the Jews were unarmed and helpless. Would the Nazi's have been as willing to kick in a door if they knew someone with a shotgun or rifle was waiting on the other side of that door? The Nazi's would probably
still have killed millions, but they would have paid a far higher price.
 
Very effectively if it decided to at the right time.

The right time is BEFORE it is disarmed.
 
One topic that seldom comes up in these types of discussions is the amount of ammunition the typical American family has on hand.

I have a friend who owns a British Enfield but NO rounds. I keep telling him all he has is a club. My father has 4 guns but less than 100 rounds of ammo.

:(
 
well how much ammo should you keep on hand? i normaly have no less than 300 rounds of practice ammo per gun and about 40 rounds for per gun for defence.
 
The lessons of Ha'Shoah

As a Jew, and as a former liberal, it took me a while to understand the necessity of armed resistance. Why more American Jews don't instinctly get the lessons of The Holocaust, I don't know. We're essentially a peaceful people, but we're not stupid.

But that brings us to Israel, which nobody has yet mentioned. As Americans, we talk about the need to resist tyranny and genocide; Israelis have been LIVING IT for almost 60 years. Israel wants nothing more than to live in peace with it's neighbors. But when the Arabs attack, Israel decimates them. When Palestinians blow up children, Israel fires missiles at their leaders and razes their homes. It is telling that the only war the Israelis "lost" was in the occupation of Southern Lebanon; it seems that occupation-style military actions don't succeed, no matter who you are.

I'm proud to be a Jew, and a lot of that pride comes from the accomplishments of the Jewish State to resist those who would destroy us. To not resist would mean the victims of the Holocaust died in vain. For me to not resist tyranny would be just as bad.


****
As for ammo, the goal is to have at least 1,000 rounds for each type of weapon, minimum, and at least 1,000 for each weapon-except for .22, which is so easy to buy and store, I'm trying to go for 5,000. (I really have to get me a .22 firearm one of these days! :eek: )
 
well how much ammo should you keep on hand?

Don't know how much I have, but I'd estimate .223 at about 2000 loaded up in magazines and another 1200 boxed. 308 about 240 in magazines and 2500-2700 boxed. 303 maybe 1500-1600. 30-06 about 1600. 7.62x54 around 1800. 8mm roughly 1200. 9x19 about 2000. 40SW maybe 500-600. 45ACP same. Around 200-250 each 38, 357, 10mm, 32acp. 900-1000 of .22, ought to remedy that and all the pistol calibers. Perhaps 300 20ga shells, wih a lot of slug and buck. I even keep a few for the calibers I don't have (12ga, 7.62x39). I'd think that ammo is cheaper to buy in bulk, esp. when milsurp is available. I shoot a lot less centerfire and more .22LR, but some classes I've taken required 900 rounds of pistol or rifle ammo in a weekend. In any case, I'd get very nervious if I had less than 500 rounds for the primary handgun or less than 1000 for the primary rifle. Since I have more than one gun in most of the calibers, my stash is pretty minimal right now. Same goes for magazines, I'd prefer at least twelve mags per primary rifle and five per handgun.
 
Don't know how much I have, but I'd estimate .223 at about 2000 loaded up in magazines and another 1200 boxed. 308 about 240 in magazines and 2500-2700 boxed. 303 maybe 1500-1600. 30-06 about 1600. 7.62x54 around 1800. 8mm roughly 1200. 9x19 about 2000. 40SW maybe 500-600. 45ACP same. Around 200-250 each 38, 357, 10mm, 32acp. 900-1000 of .22, ought to remedy that and all the pistol calibers. Perhaps 300 20ga shells, wih a lot of slug and buck. I even keep a few for the calibers I don't have (12ga, 7.62x39). I'd think that ammo is cheaper to buy in bulk, esp. when milsurp is available. I shoot a lot less centerfire and more .22LR, but some classes I've taken required 900 rounds of pistol or rifle ammo in a weekend. In any case, I'd get very nervious if I had less than 500 rounds for the primary handgun or less than 1000 for the primary rifle. Since I have more than one gun in most of the calibers, my stash is pretty minimal right now. Same goes for magazines, I'd prefer at least twelve mags per primary rifle and five per handgun.

[blissninnie] Somebody stop that man! He has an arsenal :what: !! [/blissninnie]

Sawdust :D
 
still, you could arm 20,000,000 people and they would still lose to a well trained professional army. without good logistics, training, leadership and a plentifull supply of ammo they would eventually lose but not before taking a tremendous toll and the armed forces.


http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004/09/dark-networks-vladis-krebs-has-case.html

[BLOCKQUOTE]

Thursday, September 23, 2004
Dark Networks

Vladis Krebs has a case study page examining how mapping social networks and understanding their properties can be used to take down of terrorist networks. Network analysis was used to take down Saddam Hussein. The Washington Post has some of the details.

[BLOCKQUOTE]
The Army general whose forces captured Saddam Hussein said yesterday that he realized as far back as July that the key lay in figuring out the former Iraqi president's clan and family support structures in and around Hussein's home city of Tikrit.

Following a strategy similar to that pioneered by New York City police in the 1990s, who cracked down on "squeegee men" only to discover they knew about far more serious criminals, Maj. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno said his analysts and commanders spent the summer building "link diagrams," graphics showing everyone related to Hussein by blood or tribe.

While U.S. forces up to then had been preoccupied with finding "high value targets" from the Bush administration's list of the top 55 most-wanted Iraqis, Odierno said those family diagrams led his forces to lower-level, but nonetheless highly trusted, relatives and clan members harboring Hussein and helping him move around the countryside.
[/BLOCKQUOTE]

And the rest as they say, is history. John Robb took at look at the September 11 network and analyzed its characteristics. The Mohammed Atta network had evolved under Darwinian pressure until it reached the form best suited for its purpose: to conduct strategic attacks against the United States of America. Robb concludes that a cell of 70 persons will answer to the purpose, yet be sparse enough to allow its members to remain in relative isolation. For example, no one member of Atta's cell knew more than five others. Moreover, the average distance between any two members was more than four persons. Crucially, but not surprisingly, this disconnected network of plotters maintained coherence by relying on a support infrastructure -- probably communications posts, safe houses, couriers -- to keep themselves from unraveling. Because security comes at a price in performance and flexibility, Robb arrives at an astounding conjecture: you can have small, operationally secure terrorist groups, but you can't have large, operationally secure cells without a state sponsor.


[BLOCKQUOTE]
Distributed, dynamic terrorist networks cannot scale like hierarchical networks. The same network design that makes them resiliant against attack puts absolute limits on their size. If so, what are those limits?

A good starting point is to look at limits to group size within peaceful online communities on which we have extensive data -- terrorist networks are essentially geographically dispersed online communities. Chris Allen does a good job analyzing optimal group size with his critique of the Dunbar number.

His analysis (replete with examples) shows that there is a gradual fall-off in effectiveness at 80 members, with an absolute fall-off at 150 members. The initial fall-off occurs, according to Chris, due to an increasing amount of effort spent on "grooming" the group to maintain cohesion. The absolute fall-off at 150 members occurs when grooming fails to stem dissatisfaction and dissension, which causes the group to cleave apart into smaller subgroups (that may remain affiliated).

Al Qaeda may have been able to grow much larger than this when it ran physical training camps in Afghanistan. Physical proximity allowed al Qaeda to operate as a hierarchy along military lines, complete with middle management (or at least a mix of a hierarchy in Afghanistan and a distributed network outside of Afghanistan). Once those camps were broken apart, the factors listed above were likely to have caused the fragmentation we see today (lots of references to this in the news).
[/BLOCKQUOTE]

His last paragraph is crucial to understanding why the defeat of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the toppling of Saddam Hussein may have cripped global terrorism so badly. Without the infrastrastructure of a state sponsor, terrorism is limited to cells of about 100 members in size in order to maintain security. In the context of the current campaign in Iraq, the strategic importance of places like Falluja or "holy places" is that their enclave nature allows terrorists to grow out their networks to a larger and more potent size. Without those sanctuaries, they would be small, clandestine hunted bands. The argument that dismantling terrorist enclaves makes "America less safe than it should be in a dangerous world" inverts the logic. It is allowing the growth of terrorist enclaves that puts everyone at risk in an otherwise safe world.
[/BLOCKQUOTE]


UPDATE: Yes, this is about Al Qaida and terrorism. But it could also be applied to any "resistance" movement in the United States. If some rebellion were to occur within the U.S., where would the outside help come from? The Viet Cong had North Vietnam and the Soviet Union, while the Afghan mujihadeen were supplied with Stinger missiles by the U.S. government.
 
Last edited:
Don't know how much I have, but I'd estimate .223 at about 2000 loaded up in magazines and another 1200 boxed. 308 about 240 in magazines and 2500-2700 boxed. 303 maybe 1500-1600. 30-06 about 1600. 7.62x54 around 1800. 8mm roughly 1200. 9x19 about 2000. 40SW maybe 500-600. 45ACP same. Around 200-250 each 38, 357, 10mm, 32acp. 900-1000 of .22, ought to remedy that and all the pistol calibers. Perhaps 300 20ga shells, wih a lot of slug and buck. I even keep a few for the calibers I don't have (12ga, 7.62x39). I'd think that ammo is cheaper to buy in bulk, esp. when milsurp is available. I shoot a lot less centerfire and more .22LR, but some classes I've taken required 900 rounds of pistol or rifle ammo in a weekend. In any case, I'd get very nervious if I had less than 500 rounds for the primary handgun or less than 1000 for the primary rifle. Since I have more than one gun in most of the calibers, my stash is pretty minimal right now. Same goes for magazines, I'd prefer at least twelve mags per primary rifle and five per handgun.

:what: Geez man, are you getting ready to start WWIII or what?!?!? :D
 
kevin993 is on my team....:D


Cause das what I'm talk'n bout.....:)

Genocide stops when da hammah drops...


MaceWindu
 
Oleg's got the right idea, but sometimes it comes down to how much ammo you can CARRY. That's where the .22's come in handy...

As for military-style weapons, I defer to Sam Elliott in When We Were Soldiers..."There'll be plenty lying around if I need one...." :evil:
 
resisting genocide

lee lapin hit the nail on the head.Accounts of the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939 give the an unbeleivable story of an armed and motivated population resisting a larger and better equiped invader.The Finns knew that invasion and occupation by Stalins hordes brought genocide as well.The first stage of the invasion was devastating to the unprepared and lightly armed Finns.The response to the Soviets was so intense that the casualty rate was over 25 to 1 on average and 100 to 1 at times.The Finns had no air power or heavy artillery.The ;argest artillery piece the Finns had was pulled by a horse drawn sleigh.After the first few months of the well organized Finns massacreing the Soviets it became a war of attrition.The Finnish govt appealed the the US for help but to no avail.The Roosevelt admimistration critcized Stalin mildly but did not act.After a few months an armistice was called and the Finnish govt ceded the territory that Stalin wanted(warm water ports to the Baltic)but rest of the nation was safe from Soviet oppression.The treaty signed then gave Finland a gauruntee of secure borders even thru the Continuation War of 1944 when the Nazis crossed thru Finland into Soviet territory then Stalins forces chased the Nazis back to oblivion.The bottom line was that Finland not absorbed into the USSR like Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were after 1945.The Finns took the lessons of the Winter War to heart.To this day there is universal conscription.All males must serve in the military at age19.They can be called back to service at any time.All trucks can be called into service of the govt at any time.Gun ownership seems to be a murky issue but the citizens seem to have plenty of rifles. The Finns acheived thru sacrifice and determination what the Swiss acheived thru bluster and canniness.
 
Although the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto is one of the more famous or even infamous accounts of a people rising, even if too late, to defend themselves against unpseakable evil, it is not a good example of a "what if" secenario of people resisting tyrany with pesonally owned weapons. The fact is nothing on the face of the earth was going to stop the Nazi army at that point except the endless steppes of Russia or the Atlantic Ocean. They had effectively destroyed the most powerful armies in the world in a matter of months. It took most of the great powers in the world 7 long years to finally defeat the Germans at that point.

A better example are the recent armed conflicts in Kosovo or the Kurds in Iraq. They used small arms to defend themselves and retain somewhat autonomy. Exactly the same thing the Afganistans did to the Russians for years and the Chechnyans are doing now. Or the IRA did for decades. Sure the US military is powerful and seems unstoppable. But if they same people who are growing there food and making there weapons attempted to resist them, then it would essentially be a guerilla war fought with small arms. There would be no front lines and no bases to fly safely from.
 
Ammunition needs

If terrorist, finacial disaster or something else occurs, you really need a "lifetime" supply of ammunition. It's like insurance. You'll probably never need it, but if you do...

If any of the above, or a subset of such should happen, does anyone think it would be possible, after the fact, to aquire any significant amount of ammuntion? In the caliber(s) you need?

If you only had a small amount of ammunition, what would you think about giving/selling some to a neighbor?

Don't forget that in a time of true need, essential commodities are worth much more than paper money.
 
The will to fight is the key. A man with a hatchet, knife, or even just a chair leg can get a gun. A man who is willing to fight superior odds with only a knife will cause you terrible headaches with a gun.
Anyone who belittles what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto is a moron. Those people dug in with few weapons and fought a vastly superior force, and they held longer than anyone could have possibly imagined. Yes, they were wiped out, but they were not defeated. You can't defeat people like that, only kill them. Their will to fight is what made them what they were.
Now, take a look at the US under a similar circumstance. We have something like 80 million+ gunowners and over 200 million guns. IIRC, there was a study awhile back saying that we have enough guns in this country to arm 80% of our population with something.
I seriouly doubt success against a guerilla army of even only 10% of those gunowners. Imagine 8 million men who attack your forces every time you send them out. Even if you send 100 men to round people up, it takes a relatively small number of guerillas to tie them up and keep them from accomplishing their objective. A dozen men, all dressed like civilians, all moving and shooting you one at a time. Even with air support, who do you bomb? We all look alike. Even if they directly attack civilians with the intent of accidentally getting you too, all they do is add more supporters to your resistance.
An armed population is a very effective deterrent.
And anyone who thinks it couldn't happen here has their head in the sand. If you had walked up to a Jewish man in 1929 and told him that in a few years he and his family would be rounded up and slaughtered wholesale, he would have called you a nut.
There is a book written by haulocaust survivor called "Night" (Elie Wiesel, I think). In this book, he describes someone warning his village of what is about to happen to them, but no one believes it. At least not until it is too late.

The sheeple can think what they want, but I will be armed.
Even a single shot .22 will get you a better weapon if you should need it.
As for my collection, I have some good weapons and as much ammo as I can afford for them.
 
You wanna debate abortion, go do it somewhere else.

:scrutiny:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top