How important are exit wounds?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Flechette, Jan 28, 2021.

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  1. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd member

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    In war - an exit wound is valuable in demanding resources in primary, secondary and tertiary care. Greater shock to the wounded, the care-giver and witnesses is a side benefit. Resources both in man-hours and material are drained.

    In hunting - an exit wound is an exemplification of wasted energy. Generally speaking.

    Todd.
     
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  2. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Yea ... plus the exited bullet might tko another enemy soldier!! ! ! :D :evil:
     
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  3. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    AND 99.9% of hunters are over gunned so much, they could loose half of the energy out the other side and still have more than they need.

    IF the bullet expands well inside the animal, having an exit hole is a huge plus!

    BTW, even with a large hole through the heart, they can and sometimes do, run quite a ways... Been there done that too...

    DM
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
  4. WheelGunMan

    WheelGunMan Member

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    Exactly!! In a defensive situation exit sounds could cause collateral damage.
     
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  5. FFGColorado

    FFGColorado Member

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    The presence of an exit hole might mean that the round didn't hit any 'important parts', like bone..like a lot of thru and thru wounds

    Bleeding internally is MUCH more dangerous and hard to control that bleeding 'out two leaking holes' and if there are wounds, entry and exit, there is a good chance there is internal bleeding also.

    I think the important part is the round do the damage that the shooter seeks..damage to the inside of the 'target'..and whether or not there is an exit wound doesn't really matter. Except for the case of over penetration and hitting something that you don't want to hit. Isn't that the whole idea of JHP?? If there is a smooth exit wound using JHP, then it essentially failed..yes?
     
  6. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    When hunting deer, I like an exit wound- especially if that critter runs on me. The more holes = more leakage= more/faster blood loss= faster expiration=better blood trail = greater overall chance of fast recovery of deer.
     
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  7. NuShootr

    NuShootr member

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    The only vital organs completely protected by bone are the heart and lungs. And if you are lucky enough to get through the intercostal area, you could hit those without touching bone. A through and through hit to the liver, aorta, large intestine, stomach, or other major artery is most likely catastrophic if not dealt with immediately.
     
  8. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    The op hasn't been back, but if we read his post it's clear that he was asking about defensive shooting and not hunting. Drawing from the experience of hunting can help illustrate some things but misses the mark mostly. As the primary objectives, killing the game with one shot vs. stopping an attack, are different.

    I've highlighted a few places in the OP's note. makes it easier to comment on them.
    On "incapacitation"...that is a particular thing: "noun. the state of not having the necessary ability, qualification, or strength to perform some specified act or function; incapacity: When the brain lacks sufficient oxygen, cognitive and mental ability declines, followed by physical incapacitation, and then unconsciousness or even death."

    It's not just blood loss that can cause incapacitation. Shock (physical shock can have both physical and psychological causes), terror and pain can cause the temporary inability to function physically.

    It's true that both entrance and exit wound can cause more external bleeding. But it's often the case that this takes some time for a person to bleed out to the point that they are physically incapable of fighting. When an immediate stop is needed "bleeding out" is not reliable. This is why there is less talk about that these days in general.

    In the 1970's a company named Super Vel the first reliable expanding jacketed hollow point ammo. This was first done for the 357 Magnum with 110 and 115 gr. bullets moving at close to 1400 fps from a 4" barrel. This brought on a revolution in bullet design. That revolution expanded after the 1986 Miami shootout that effected all calibers.

    Following that shootout the FBI developed a protocol. They wanted JHP bullets that could penetrate certain barriers (auto glass, drywall, heavy clothing, sheet metal, etc.) and after that expand and penetrate 12" to 16". This allowed the bullet to hit critical organs, from various angles that a bullet might hit a body at and continue. The expansion also limited penetration. The expansion of the bullets created more damage to tissue. The issue was not to create two holes, though that obviously continues to happen, but to cause more trauma, rapidly.

    Bleeding out, as an objective of bullet performance, takes too long in and of itself. Bullet expansion does create a larger hole when leaving the body, obviously. But the point is to create more damage right now that can create an immediate stop.

    Yes, increased velocity can, with the right bullet, create more damage.
     
  9. JeffTC

    JeffTC Member

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    I would say simple physics would prevail here. That is a bullet that passes completely through and exits the target has not transferred it's full energy into the target. Exit wounds are larger and more destructive than entry wounds, this is true. But there is a lot to be said for the damage done to internal organs by a bullet the imparts it's full energy into the target. Take a look at shots fired into ballistic gel, you can see a radius of damage around the bullet's trajectory through the gel. This pattern of damage equates to severe trauma to internal organs in a living creature. Bullets that pass completely through and exit have smaller areas of damage around their path through the gel. Much can also be said for mushrooming and fragmentation of various types of hollow point rounds and there is always the effect of hydrostatic shock to consider. Collateral damage from a thru & thru must also be taken into account, especially if we're talking about a self defense situation in an urban or suburban environment. I don't know if I could live with myself knowing that in the act of defending myself a bullet I had fired into my attacker kept going and killed an innocent.
     
  10. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    This...
    I've started to gravitate to heavier slower bullets over the last few years.
    I get the same amount of dead with less internal damage.
    I hate tracking animals. Blood makes it easier. Breaking shoulders makes it even easier.;)
     
  11. gnappi

    gnappi Member

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    My first deer I took with a 30-30 at 50 yards or so and it hit him just behind the heart, and he slammed immediately to the ground. Impossibly he was trying to get up I quickly gave it a final shot.

    That first shot LITERALLY took almost EVERYTHING inside that buck and made it a side car on the outside of his port rib cage. If there was wasted energy I couldn't prove it.
     
  12. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    While many a video today shows deer run off with lighted knocks swirling, it is NOT tje preferred type of wound. You want an exit.

    Remember the shows are commercials.

    And IMHO an exit in gun hunting is also good. Hide is elastic and can snag em though.

    Sometimes things dont go as planned and what some might deem as too much penetration in one shot type, is just enough in another. Insurance aint a bad thing to have.

    Lighter faster bullets w expansion can kill well. So can fat slower bullets that chug on through.

    As for self defense on 2 legged varmints....id like something that can handle a bit of barrier or be skipped in if needed. Of course without that there may be risk of going through and hitting what lays beyond.

    Now....what if you had two bad guys in a row?
     
  13. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    In hunting you dont shoot through stuff at the animal. But when your projectile hits the animal, you want it to go through.

    Excluding of course varmint hunting and using fangible bullets.

    Self defense may require shooting through stuff to get to a threat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  14. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    The deeper the wound the more chance of vital things getting damaged.

    Deeper is better.

    And when the projectile comes out, well thats as deep a wound channel as youre gonna get.

    Anybody that tells you an arrow not exiting a critter is preferred, is wrong. 2 lungs damaged is better than 1. And critters can move during projectile flight.....landing off the mark. Getting through bone and or hitting more stuff that can bleed, bring tje animal to death faster....is good.

    Read up on some Ashby studies if ya want.

    A lot of bowhunting shows, and reg guys afield, like lighter faster arrows to up tjeir chances of hitting the mark. But once you hit it uou gotta drive through it, and that stuff doesnt work as well as cut on contact fixed blades on arrows of weight.

    Look up Ranch Fairy on YT. Dony care for his style but hes onto something.

    Unfortunately, bows are sold on speed speed speed. Its an easy comparison on bow efficiency. But killing stuff with them well, may require a change in thinking
     
  15. NuShootr

    NuShootr member

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    Why do arrows now have lighted nocks? My understanding is that they are easier to track in the dark. And the only way to track it, is if it stays in the animal.
     
  16. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    Agreed.
    I like an exit wound to make tracking easier if the animal doesn't drop right there. Which they don't always do, no matter what some people try to portray on the interweb. (I'm not a fan of neck or head shots that many claim guarantee this. The deer I've seen with their jawbones hanging by shredded flesh say otherwise.)
     
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  17. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    I run a low KE setup bowhunting.
    Bow and arrow tune is perfect. I dont waste what little energy I have.

    My FOC is higher and my momentum decent.

    And typically i blow clean through my deer.

    Speed and KE are all some people can comprehend. There's more to it than that.
     
  18. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    I think there also something to fat heavy bullets. Deer seem somewhat impressed when swatted w 200 grain .35 cal bullets at modest velocity
     
  19. NuShootr

    NuShootr member

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    What kind of bow, what's the arrow weight, what tip on your arrow and what draw weight?
     
  20. Bacon buster

    Bacon buster Member

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    Hook eye hook eye you are definitely right about a heavy bullet at modest speed. Usually equals hoofs up. That’s due to the amount of energy displaced on the animal. A fast bullet properly designed will do the same thing. It dumps energy into the animal. Case in point I shot a deer one time with a 30 30 and it absolutely hammered that deer clean off it’s feet. Same result many times with a 300 win mag running near 3000 FPS with Berger’s. Take a fast load with a bonded bullet or fmj or similar and you’re not gonna have great success dropping em on the spot. We tested a 223 from max load to a really low load shooting a steel plate at 100 yards. Full power loads blew through it like a drill bit. Minimum loads blew it off the chains
     
  21. Bacon buster

    Bacon buster Member

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    As for the bows I shoot a 500 gr arrow at 270 FPS. It works good perfectly quiet. It’s also has been jumped a couple times. Deer are amazingly fast at ducking an arrow. This was my first year bow hunting had one awesome kill and two ducky dodgy fleet footed does. Buck never had a chance
     
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  22. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    Blackwidow recurves. Gold Tip carbons w added weight to insert ( usually 50 to the reg alum insert. Some get swapped to a 100gr brass insert. And some get the 100gr insert plus 50 gr added ).

    Depends on bow poundage, if B50 or FF strung, and poundage. My draw is 28.5"

    Arrow heads....the old Snuffers made big holes ( 3 blade ). Recommendation is a better recurve perf wise of 55# or more. I agree.

    Not a fan of reg 2 blafr heads. Killed em w Magnus Stingers abd old school 2 blade hand sharpened. I like those type w a bleeder blade way better.

    Have not shot a deer yet w single bevel heads. RMS has a single bev 3 blade I wanna try. Have some of their 2 blades. Bud says they work good.

    Have shot deer w wheels, fixed blade heads, some cut on contact, some not, and some with mechanicals. They all worked well.

    But typically my arrows 430 gr or heavier and coming out of 70 plus pound bows.

    I tried mechs. Old Spitfire 2 blades went 6 deer w 6 shots. Red was minimal at start but ok half way. Typical for a 2 blade.

    Note: i dont have tune probs so using mechs wasnt trying to fix a problem. Many do and merely mask it.

    Since mechs new then I hedged my bet and ran em on moderately heavy arrows. Blew right through.

    Eh, fixed blades are tougher and can be reused. That is kinda handy. 20 bucks a piece kinda sucks. But if you buy a decent sharpener youll save money.

    I got a Workshop field sharpener and my RMS cutthroats shave hair.
     
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  23. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    Magnus stinger 125 w bleeders did NOT blow through a 115# dressed spike. It did however lodge in off shoulder and took me 3 hard pulls to get it free.

    25 yards.

    B50 strunf Blackwidow HS, 60#. GT 55/75 w 100gr insert. Arrows was 530 grains.

    Deer collapsed at impact. Think it must have had weight on the off leg and the whop kinda tripped it. It never got up.
     
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  24. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    Proly get a Hoyt Torrex this summer and run it between 65 and 70 #, use whatever GT I need, w Cutthroat heads

    Gun for deer....35 remington 200 gr FTX factory ammo. Or 150s or 165s of some sort in my .3006. Steyr Prohunter does at or under an inch w cheap ww spirepoint 150s.

    Carry i run 230sxt in .45acp or the Sig 124 jhp in a 9mm
     
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  25. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    From 1997 through 2017 I used factory .270 Winchester cartridges on Missouri whitetail deer. Maybe one year I got skunked. The rest were 1 shot kills, ranges from 50 to 300 yards. Longest run after being hit was 75 yards. Never recovered a bullet, all were completely penetrated.

    In 2018 and 2019 I used dramatically reduced handloads in that .270 to take 3 deer because my shoulder decided it did not like recoil. Ranges were 50 to 100 yards, none of the bullets exited. 40 yards was the longest run after the shot.

    So in my experience, bullet placement is MUCH more important than other factors, including creating an exit wound. If I can’t put the bullet where it should go, I don’t pull the trigger. Really. It’s that simple.
     
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