How long can you keep a 1911 magazine loaded?

[Walt Sherrill]

Today it seems to be all about "how many rounds can we physically cram in a magazine?" - using the cheapest springs they can buy in bulk - and that "capacity" is more important to consumers who for the most part know almost nothing about springs - or have been led to believe that magazines springs never fail. IMO.

I agree with most of your comments above, but would note that many (perhaps most) gun makers use Mec-Gar to make their OEM magazines, and Mec-Gar is the gold standard for magazines (for all but 1911 mags.) I think most of the brand-name mags for 1911s use good quality springs, and some (like Wilson) use Wolff as their spring source, and for replacement springs they sell. I don't think they use cheap imported springs. The only replacement springs I buy come from Wolff Springs, which are (as far as I know) made only in the U.S.

Why use Wolff rather than factory springs? Because Wolff offers more weight ratings than do most of the gun makers, and you can do some "tuning" with Wolff that you can't always do with the gunmaker's springs.

A lot of the replacement non-OEM mags may use cheaper springs... but cheap isn't always best when it comes to gun parts.

 

[claiborne]

well when I took my 10 yo boy out shooting a couple weeks ago he fired about 450 22 rounds. Between the 10 CZ 452 and 3 Buckmark magazines, I bet none of them were loaded for longer than 2 minutes before being joyously emptied.

 

[Drail]

That's the way ya do it!

 

[Fuego]

The valve springs in my '66 VW are still as good as new. They have never been replaced in three engine re-builds. And they are compressed and relaxed at high speed, and frequently.

Buy quality magazines and you will never have a problem. Neither will your great grandchildren.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

As noted in earlier responses, it's not how quickly springs are compressed that matters, but how DEEPLY. Most tappet springs are designed for long life and don't get compressed past their design limits. (This is addressed in reply 10 and 21). 1911 Mags left fully loaded for 50 years will still function properly, because when fully loaded, those springs aren't compressed anywhere near their elastic (design) limits.

Recoil springs are the same kind of spring, but it depends how they are usd. A Rohrbaugh R9, one of the smallest 9mm semi-autos you can buy, with the best springs that can be fit in the space available, will go about 250 rounds before Rohrbaugh recommends getting a replacement spring. A small spring doing the same work as larger springs suffers. Some hi-cap mags use the same springs as mags with smaller capacities that fit in the same length grip (or same gun). As the old saying goes, there are no free lunches: something has to give, and in some cases, it's the springs, and it's done by design. (It's the only way to keep guns small while still functioning properly [for less time], or mags to hold more rounds in the same space. Some springs are now treated as renewable resources. Some, not all. Most of us would happily replace springs more frequently if it meant we could have an extra 3-5 rounds in a carry gun. Most springs are pretty inexpensive.

 

[Ibmikey]

In 1995 I received a 1911 in a holster, belt and pouch a fellow brought back from " The Great War". I soaked the pistol for days before it was removed from the holster, badly pitted. The pistol shot like a new one and the three then loaded mags are still in my stash used on a regular basis, the ammo with 1917 dates had several failures to fire but all the springs in the pistol and mag were just fine.
Probably not one of my more intelligent moves was giving the holster rig to an acquaintance....the exterior around the US was embossed "MG Co. 161 Inf. Div", I may be wrong on the number of the division but it was something like that. I would like to have it for a nice Colt 1911 in the safe today.

 

[RainDodger]

We need a sticky for this, if there isn't one. We have beaten this question to death countless times over the last x-number of years.

 

[berettaprofessor]

I've heard that someone recently found a loaded 1911 magazine in a wall in John Brownings home that was placed there in 1915 and all rounds fired perfectly.

 

[tark]

I can vouch for 26 years, found one loaded that long in my garage last year It was a seven rounder and it was loaded with all seven. All rounds fed perfectly, spring was fine. Don't know who made it, it is unmarked and the floorplate doesn't look like it is removable.

 

[The Kershaw]

Springs are designed to compress and decompress. So long as you don't stress the coils past their mechanical limit (i.e. bending) they can be compressed indefinitely. At least, I'm not aware of any case studies where a spring was compressed for a decade, then decompressed.

Bury a loaded mag in a time capsule and open it up in 15 years. For science.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Bury a loaded mag in a time capsule and open it up in 15 years. For science.

It would depend on the mag's design. A 1911 7-round magazine, left fully loaded and protected from the elements (as is the case with most time capsules), would continue to function perfectly for many, many, many years once freed from it's capsule. The springs in a 1911 7-round mag just aren't stressed that much. A very high-cap mag, perhaps a 21 round 9mm mag, left fully loaded, might behave differently and fail after a year or two. (Wolff Springs recommends downloading a round or two on such hi-cap mags for long-term storage.)

JohnKSa, a moderator on The Firing Line completed a year-long test, using Glock and Ruger mag springs, and showed how both springs deteriorated over time by being kept compressed to (for those mags) full capacity.

Both mags showed changes in compressed length, and marked changes in spring power, but both continued to function as they should. John, an engineer, is also familiar with spring-powered air guns which use coil springs as their power source, and which, by design, routinely compress springs to their maximum compression levels. I won't post the results here or show a link to his test results (as linking to another forum is generally considered bad form, but anyone interested should contact me by PM and I'll give you a link.

As long as springs aren't pushed to or beyond their design limits (which spring designers call their "elastic limits", they'll continue to compress and decompress (i.e., cycle) for very long periods without significant deterioration or loss of function. If they stay compressed near or past their design limits, they'll eventually deteriorate quickly and may even fail far more quickly than expected. Most springs in guns or cars ARE NOT pushed that hard or that long.

We have to understand that with some guns, the springs are pushed to their design limits INTENTIONALLY! With very small guns, with high cap mags, it is necessary to ask some springs to do more work with the same material, or the same work with LESS material. Those springs will, by design, have a shorter life, but will allow the gun to hold more rounds or fit in a smaller space. Not all guns, especially older ones, push their springs that hard!

 

[hdwhit]

The Kershaw wrote:
I'm not aware of any case studies where a spring was compressed for a decade, then decompressed.

Not a "study", but for persuasive emprical evidence, read my previous posting.

What you will find is the heir's experience with a 50+ years old government issued magazine (circa 1953), unloaded - circa 1990 - and then reloaded - also circa 1990 - theses are the stress events for a magazine spring) and the magazine and pistol are both still flawless functioning.

 

[hdwhit]

The Kershaw wrote:
So long as you don't stress the coils past their mechanical limit (i.e. bending) they can be compressed indefinitely.

The compression of a spring (i.e. the "bending of its coils") is not a case of stressing it beyond it's "mechanical limit" (i.e. yield point). The result of this is to say that springs remain springs until they are compressed to the point where they "yield" under the stress and thus cease to be springs.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

What you will find is the heir's experience with a 50+ years old government issued magazine (circa 1953), unloaded - circa 1990 - and then reloaded - also circa 1990 - theses are the stress events for a magazine spring) and the magazine and pistol are both still flawless functioning.

I underlined the key point above. I'd say both YES and NO to the point you seem to be making (but I may be misinterpreting your comments, in which case, my apologies.)

If you're talking about a 1911 7-round mag, you're right, because that mag spring is nowhere near a stress event when the mag is fully loaded. If you try that with an early 8-round mag -- one built before they changed the followers a bit -- you'll likely have different results. Indeed, many 1911 enthusiasts still refuse to use 8-round mags because of their early experiences with those larger-capacity mags, even though 8-rounders are now much more capable of long-term use without failures.

Springs aren't stressed unless, when compressed, the spring is pushed to or beyond it's elastic limit. Not all mag designs, when the mag is fully loaded, push the springs near their elastic limits. A 1911 7-round spring, when the mag is fully loaded, is nowhere near it's elastic limit -- JMB designed that magazine to have plenty of reserve strength. But, the closer you get to that limit, the quicker the spring will deteriorate if kept in that state. (Micro-fractures of the steel begins and accelerates.) Stretching the springs doesn't heal the damage, although some seem to feel it helps. (Its a very temporary fix, at best, and accelerates the damage.) It's NOT cycling that kills a spring, its DEEP compression (if when compressed, it pushed too far.) Rapid cycling isn't a problem If the spring isn't pushed to it's design limits.

Most full-size 9mm guns with 10-round mags will behave much like 1911s with fully-loaded 7-round mags, if left fully loaded for many years. Many of the current high-cap mags (16-21 rounders) won't fare as well.

 

[browningguy]

How long can you keep a 1911 magazine loaded without it becoming unreliable?
Is it better not to fill it all the way so as to reduce strain on the spring?

TIA.

By actual count and survey 74 years 5 months and 3 days.

Downloading the magazine by one wouldn't hurt, but we have not developed that survey yet.

 

[Hokkmike]

How long can you keep a 1911 magazine loaded without it becoming unreliable?
Is it better not to fill it all the way so as to reduce strain on the spring?

TIA.

What was explained to me is that constant loading and unloading of magazines has more of an affect on spring life than keeping a spring fully compressed or completely open. BUT, and this is the essential point, in any case the springs will maintain a serviceable life span that lasts years, and years, and years, and etc.!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

What was explained to me is that constant loading and unloading of magazines has more of an affect on spring life than keeping a spring fully compressed or completely open. BUT, and this is the essential point, in any case the springs will maintain a serviceable life span that lasts years, and years, and years, and etc.!

What was explained to you might be right in SOME situations, but not in others. This topic has been discussed here and on other forums by specialists, including Metallurgists (engineers who work with metal design and related sciences), and what wears out a spring is working it beyond it true functional limits.

Leaving a mag spring partially compressed will have little or no effect on the spring. Working that spring in a way (as with a 7-round 1911 mag fully loaded or worked from that level of compression) that never pushes the spring past it's elastic limit, will also have almost no effect on spring life... The spring will deteriorate over time but only slightly and it will take many years before it will no longer function as it should. A spring can be worked many millions of times if it's kept within proper ranges (as is the case with TAPPET springs in auto engines) and continue to function. Tappet springs, by design, generally can't be pushed past their limits.

The folks who disagree with the experts on this topic are typically 1911 enthusiasts who use 7-round mags; and while their experience is true for 7-round 1911 mags and generally limited to that type of weapon. Springs in other types of mags can (and often will) behave differently.

Spring life? And example I use is the recoil spring in a Rohrbaugh R9, arguably the smallest 9mm semi-auto money can buy. That gun's recoil spring (a true coil spring) has a recommended service life of 250 rounds, although I'm sure they'll work longer than that. (But why would you want to risk it with a "carry" weapon; use the older springs at the range!) Why such a short life? Because they're using less metal (to fit in a smaller space) to cause the slide to load the next round. In these small guns, the spring is, by design, a renewable resource and one that must be renewed frequently to assure proper function..

If the Rohrbaugh R9 was stored with the slide locked back for a while, it might not last more than a couple of weeks; locking it back would leave the spring essentially "stacked" and pushed to or beyond the gun designers limits. When that happens, the internal structure of the steel begins to slowly break, and the breaks can cascade, until the spring "soften" and sag and are no longer able to do the needed work.

Why would they use that sort of spring in a small semi-auto? Because it's the only way to get a gun THAT SMALL to function as it should (i.e., store enough force to chamber the next round), but it'll do it for a much shorter spring life. There's no free lunch in gun design, and if you make it smaller, something has to give if you're still shooting the same round as larger guns!

The same reasoning is behind some of the very-high capacity mags -- for unless you allow the mag body to extend far beyond the end of the grip, there's less room left for the spring after adding extra rounds to the mag's capacity. Something has to give.

 

[VThillman]

In the case of these magazines, 1911 years. Official.

 

[danez71]

The valve springs in my '66 VW are still as good as new. They have never been replaced in three engine re-builds. And they are compressed and relaxed at high speed, and frequently.

Buy quality magazines and you will never have a problem. Neither will your great grandchildren.

Which only goes to show that # of cycles should not be considered the default primary wear factor of springs.

If it was, we'd be replacing recoil springs at a rate of about 10:1 as compare to mag springs. And that would with the assumption of only 1 mag being used.

But in fact, a near polar opposite of that is true.... Why? Because the # of cycles is just mearly one factor of many that determine spring life.


Valve springs are only compressed no more than about 25%.

 

[danez71]

It would depend on the mag's design. A 1911 7-round magazine, left fully loaded and protected from the elements (as is the case with most time capsules), would continue to function perfectly for many, many, many years once freed from it's capsule. The springs in a 1911 7-round mag just aren't stressed that much. A very high-cap mag, perhaps a 21 round 9mm mag, left fully loaded, might behave differently and fail after a year or two. (Wolff Springs recommends downloading a round or two on such hi-cap mags for long-term storage.)

JohnKSa, a moderator on The Firing Line completed a year-long test, using Glock and Ruger mag springs, and showed how both springs deteriorated over time by being kept compressed to (for those mags) full capacity.

Both mags showed changes in compressed length, and marked changes in spring power, but both continued to function as they should. John, an engineer, is also familiar with spring-powered air guns which use coil springs as their power source, and which, by design, routinely compress springs to their maximum compression levels. I won't post the results here or show a link to his test results (as linking to another forum is generally considered bad form, but anyone interested should contact me by PM and I'll give you a link.

As long as springs aren't pushed to or beyond their design limits (which spring designers call their "elastic limits", they'll continue to compress and decompress (i.e., cycle) for very long periods without significant deterioration or loss of function. If they stay compressed near or past their design limits, they'll eventually deteriorate quickly and may even fail far more quickly than expected. Most springs in guns or cars ARE NOT pushed that hard or that long.

We have to understand that with some guns, the springs are pushed to their design limits INTENTIONALLY! With very small guns, with high cap mags, it is necessary to ask some springs to do more work with the same material, or the same work with LESS material. Those springs will, by design, have a shorter life, but will allow the gun to hold more rounds or fit in a smaller space. Not all guns, especially older ones, push their springs that hard!

Which is what I provided proof of several years ago there.


I cant find the link at the moment but heres the image that I poorly captured of an accelerated stress test on spring material.


Clearly, time plays a factor. Material listed is various spring wire.

 

[danez71]

What was explained to me is that constant loading and unloading of magazines has more of an affect on spring life than keeping a spring fully compressed or completely open. BUT, and this is the essential point, in any case the springs will maintain a serviceable life span that lasts years, and years, and years, and etc.!

Partially true because its only part of the whole picture.


Compressing a spring 100%, one time, will cause more damage, especially if its held in that position for a long time, than compressing that same spring 100K times only 10% for a millisecond at time.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

danez71 has provided a lot of technical links about springs and related materials over the years -- he's in the business -- and I copied many of them. Unhappily, websites change over time, and many of the links no longer work.

This is NOT a new topic here or on The Firing Line... A lot of well-informed folks who work with springs and spring design, with metals (metallurgists) and others with an engineering background, have contributed to the discussions. But a lot of folks with 1911s in their blood just can't seem to understand that 1911 mags (especially 7-rounders) are not typical mags, and that higher performance for shorter periods is now more important to many gun owners than long-term reliability. Springs are cheap.

 

[Drail]

"Springs are cheap" Words to live by. Engine valve spring loading has absolutely nothing in common with magazine springs. Valve springs are made from very heavy gauge steel and only compress a tiny fraction of an inch. Talk to any LEO armorer who maintains pump shotguns left fully loaded in cruiser racks for very long periods about magazine spring failure. Those springs do NOT get repeated compression/expansion cycles but they also will fail to feed the last couple of rounds after just sitting compressed for long periods. I have always made it a habit to replace any magazine springs on any gun I have bought with known quality springs and leave them downloaded by one round IF the gun is going to sit loaded for long periods. That extra round isn't going to do you any good if it won't feed.

 

[danez71]

danez71 has provided a lot of technical links about springs and related materials over the years -- he's in the business -- and I copied many of them. Unhappily, websites change over time, and many of the links no longer work.

This is NOT a new topic here or on The Firing Line... A lot of well-informed folks who work with springs and spring design, with metals (metallurgists) and others with an engineering background, have contributed to the discussions. But a lot of folks with 1911s in their blood just can't seem to understand that 1911 mags (especially 7-rounders) are not typical mags, and that performance for shorter periods is now more important to many gun owners than long-term reliability.

I use to work in the aerospace industry and learned a lot from a cpl different engineers primarily from Hughes Space and Communication in El Segundo, CA.

This general issue largely falls under Hookes Law which is beyond my pay grade... and education.


However, maybe its time to provide some links from spring experts.


https://www.thespringstore.com/tech-info/compression-spring-elastic-limit.html

Definition: The elastic limit is the maximum flexibility your compression spring is able to achieve without taking a permanent set.
Based on theory, one would think that every spring compression spring would be able to travel or compress down to its solid height. This statement is false. In this article, you will learn that your compression spring has a limit to how flexible it will be considering its physical dimensions.

When a compression spring has a good amount of pitch in between the coils in proportion with the free length and its coils aren’t too tight, there is a chance that your coil spring might be able to safely deflect to its solid height. On the other hand, if you have a lot of pitch in between the coils in proportion with the free length and/or a tight index, your spring is under more stress. This means that it’ll be stronger but there will be a compression spring elastic limit which might not allow it to travel down to its solid height. Exceeding the elastic limit may result in your spring taking a permanent set which means that it will not return to its free or pre-loaded length once the load is released. The softness of the material type you use also has a lot to do with the compression spring elastic limit.


Using our online compression spring elastic limit spring calculator, you will see that there are two safe travel values that can help you in bettering your design. These are true maximum travel and maximum travel considering solid height.

http://acxesspring.com/maximum-spring-compression-calculator.html

Maximum spring compression is the "true maximum travel" of a compression spring also known as the maximum travel considering solid height or the safe travel distance which your spring can travel safely without any permanent set caused by fatigue and stress.

Its been a few years since I provided links... there weren't very many good public web resources back then. However, there is now. The data is fairly easy to obtain by everyone.



Just because username 'aR-gl0cktastic-Ak' said something seemingly cleaver that was told to him by his uncle that was told to him by someone else....back in the day before AOL and dial up...... doesn't make it true.


A general statement of 'Only cycles affect springs. Leaving them loaded is fine'.... is about as comprehensive as saying my truck gets 15mpg and doesn't address how the truck gets used which directly affects how many mpg it actually gets.


The phrase 'a properly designed spring will last forever' is cop-out. It mat not be physically possible, or economically feasible/sellable, to design a spring that will last forever in a given application.

 

[Drail]

Excellent post, sir.