How many bullets before lead contamination is an issue?
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MySuomi
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I read ( i think it was on this forum) that the lead in bullets does not get into the water table. It stays inert on or in the ground. Some oxidation but that is it. I will let others with more knowledge chime in.
Yes, but the issue is more complex than just the amount of lead you put in the ground. Studies of military ranges have shown the soil type, the amount of "acid rain" you get, all determine the level of contamination that really gets into the soil and groundwater. Lead oxidizes and develops a passivation layer unless soil or rain is acidic. If the soil isn't acidic and you're not in an acid rain area the lead typically doesn't leach. I spent two decades in the haz waste site/environmental industry. Much of our work was at government ranges and the results from the samples we took showed the local pH made all the difference between leachable lead and lead that didn't.
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whughett
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Well if I were concerned I’d simply shoot paper or self healing targets into a back stop that would allow retrieval of the lead.
Another solution would be an impervious container system in front of and around the steel target. Poured concrete perhaps. Lead could also be recovered.
Another solution would be an impervious container system in front of and around the steel target. Poured concrete perhaps. Lead could also be recovered.
SunnySlopes
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This is discussed elsewhere.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=610907
[Begin quote]
Why worry??
First point, "Lead", evil, scary lead that causes all kinds of medical problems is more than a bit of a "red herring" when you're talking about bullets.
Metallic lead, the kind used in bullets, is not water soluble. It does NOT dissolve in water, you CANNOT ingest it from drinking well water. The proof of this is obvious to anyone who does not have an anti-lead agenda and who bothers to take the time to actually use at least two of their brain cells at the same time.
To this day, people can find lead bullets on old battlefields, exposed to the action of weather and erosion for a couple HUNDRED YEARS, or more, and they are not "melted, dissolved, or eroded". The iron of the musket can be rusted away to powder, the stock rotted to dust but the lead musket ball will be essentially intact. (with an oxide coating on the exposed area).
Do not do as others do, (including the govt) and confuse other lead compounds with the lead used in bullets. Those compounds may contain lead in a soluble form, and can enter the body. Lead in paint is "bad" (but only if you EAT IT), lead in the air isn't good, so don't inhale over the melting pot. but the lead in the bullets themselves isn't a problem when its in the ground, except for various govt regulations, which may, or may not apply to private property.
If you're wondering why lead shot is banned for waterfowl, the science part is because waterfowl EAT IT, and their systems grind up the shot into powder that digestive acids can dissolve and enter the bloodstream. The rest of the reason it's banned is political.
[End quote]
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=610907
[Begin quote]
Why worry??
First point, "Lead", evil, scary lead that causes all kinds of medical problems is more than a bit of a "red herring" when you're talking about bullets.
Metallic lead, the kind used in bullets, is not water soluble. It does NOT dissolve in water, you CANNOT ingest it from drinking well water. The proof of this is obvious to anyone who does not have an anti-lead agenda and who bothers to take the time to actually use at least two of their brain cells at the same time.
To this day, people can find lead bullets on old battlefields, exposed to the action of weather and erosion for a couple HUNDRED YEARS, or more, and they are not "melted, dissolved, or eroded". The iron of the musket can be rusted away to powder, the stock rotted to dust but the lead musket ball will be essentially intact. (with an oxide coating on the exposed area).
Do not do as others do, (including the govt) and confuse other lead compounds with the lead used in bullets. Those compounds may contain lead in a soluble form, and can enter the body. Lead in paint is "bad" (but only if you EAT IT), lead in the air isn't good, so don't inhale over the melting pot. but the lead in the bullets themselves isn't a problem when its in the ground, except for various govt regulations, which may, or may not apply to private property.
If you're wondering why lead shot is banned for waterfowl, the science part is because waterfowl EAT IT, and their systems grind up the shot into powder that digestive acids can dissolve and enter the bloodstream. The rest of the reason it's banned is political.
[End quote]
Archie
Member
I concur. Not as big a deal as made out by restrictionists.
The biggest reason to 'reclaim' lead is to recycle it into new bullets. (Or sell it or trade it to those who cast bullets.)
Do be careful of cement or metal area limiters. Bullets bounce off soft earth only at 'low' angles. Bullets bounce off "hard, dry, packed" earth at higher angles. Those specific angles are subject to exact conditions. However, metal or concrete (or rocks) will bounce a bullet or fragments of bullets from a right angle impact. Plowed, tilled or otherwise 'stirred up' dirt soaks up bullets best. Nothing to do with lead contamination, but the countermeasures to lead contamination should not be a hazard to shooters or the house.
The biggest reason to 'reclaim' lead is to recycle it into new bullets. (Or sell it or trade it to those who cast bullets.)
Do be careful of cement or metal area limiters. Bullets bounce off soft earth only at 'low' angles. Bullets bounce off "hard, dry, packed" earth at higher angles. Those specific angles are subject to exact conditions. However, metal or concrete (or rocks) will bounce a bullet or fragments of bullets from a right angle impact. Plowed, tilled or otherwise 'stirred up' dirt soaks up bullets best. Nothing to do with lead contamination, but the countermeasures to lead contamination should not be a hazard to shooters or the house.
Dunross
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Rainfall is naturally acidic to a degree even without taking air pollution into account. Soil pH in areas with plentiful rainfall also tends to be acidic to some degree. Enough so that in many areas an agricultural soil analysis often recommends lime to raise soil pH to levels preferred by whatever is being planted.
Does this mean you will have lead leaching around your backstop? I don't know, but in view of dealing with some unknowns there is a solution that costs little and lasts for years. Apply agricultural lime available from any garden store, feed & seed dealer, or farm supply to the backstop and areas immediately adjacent to it.
You don't have to put so much down that it kills the plant life. Just enough to raise the pH to near neutral or perhaps slightly above. Now the problem of soil and water leaching of lead due to acidity is forestalled. Reapply every two or three years.
Does this mean you will have lead leaching around your backstop? I don't know, but in view of dealing with some unknowns there is a solution that costs little and lasts for years. Apply agricultural lime available from any garden store, feed & seed dealer, or farm supply to the backstop and areas immediately adjacent to it.
You don't have to put so much down that it kills the plant life. Just enough to raise the pH to near neutral or perhaps slightly above. Now the problem of soil and water leaching of lead due to acidity is forestalled. Reapply every two or three years.
Ohen Cepel
Member
HSO nailed it. There are rare places where the environment mobilizes it more but its not that common.
One could not find Civil War minie balls and bullets in the ground still if lead was highly mobile.
One could not find Civil War minie balls and bullets in the ground still if lead was highly mobile.
Armednfree
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md7
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I read an article a while back about French farmers finding bullets, unexploded ordnance, etc. when they till their fields.
The fact that they’re tilling fields that were once WW1 battlefields leads me to believe that perhaps lead contamination may not be as large of a problem as we think.
Either I’m wrong in that assumption or French farmers are cool with lead. Or maybe both?
The fact that they’re tilling fields that were once WW1 battlefields leads me to believe that perhaps lead contamination may not be as large of a problem as we think.
Either I’m wrong in that assumption or French farmers are cool with lead. Or maybe both?
DocRock
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Very well written. It would be beneficial were this made sticky.
herrwalther
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I get tested for Lead every year with my standard blood panel. I reload somewhat and mostly shoot indoors while maintaining a normal lead blood level. If you were casting your own bullets or shooting at an indoor range with poor ventilation, lead in your blood may be an issue. If the matter concerns you, ask your doctor about doing blood tests at your next appointment. And explain why. Most docs won't put in the paperwork or talk you down if you don't give a good reason why you feel your health is at risk.
AS far as privacy, if you don't feel like telling your doc that you shoot a lot, say you use old fishing weights for fishing. And sometimes you chew on them when setting up a line. That can get them ordering a blood test for lead levels.
AS far as privacy, if you don't feel like telling your doc that you shoot a lot, say you use old fishing weights for fishing. And sometimes you chew on them when setting up a line. That can get them ordering a blood test for lead levels.
High Plains
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Lead from bullets in a backstop has a minimal chance of contaminating drinking water. Since the lead is mostly contained above ground and far from drinking water, it is possible to remove the soil from the backstop, sift it, catch the copper jackets and lead, and put the soil back on a backstop, in the heavy clay content of a backstop I use, the bullets might make it 18” into the berm. We have been using it since 1980 and the amount of “lost” soil is barely anything. Plus, the farms use well water for their house water, and the wells are a long, long way from the backstop.
Jim Watson
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A colleague was in on some of that and he saw similar effects. Well used bullet stop berms might contain intact bullets, bullet jackets with the lead leached out, bullet cores with the jackets corroded away, or nothing at all of any age.
I have a slight acquaintance with that; what they are concerned with is UXO, both explosive and gas.
md7
Member
I remember the article did mention that many of those farmers had to call police or military to deal with unexploded ordnance.
Will post a link if I can manage to find it. It was an interesting read.
Jim Watson
Member
Heck, I may have written it, as a gun board post before. A couple of guys from my agency went to Europe and saw retrieval of UXO in France and Belgium. We were more interested in how they handled the gas shells.
Captcurt
Member
I have wondered about this for many years. Back when I was a teen in the 60's my closest friends dad donated land for a gun club. They set up several trap houses and even held the State Shoot there several years. After they shut down the range the land was sold and platted for a subdivision. Today it has houses on it's entirety. There had to be a ton lead on that place, but I doubt if it was ever tested or acknowledged in the sale.
Jim Watson
Member
Same deal here. We had land at nominal rent for the trap and skeet club for maybe 20 years. The owner turned it over for development and there was no sign of "remediation." There sure wasn't for the old location in the 1950s that was built over.
ETA
In a bygone day when shooting was a respectable sport, there was a Skeet and Trap range on the parking lot of the LA County Fairgrounds. When the fair came to town, they would skid the houses off to the edge of the lot, plank over the pits for the trap houses, and sweep the lot to salvage the shot.
ETA
In a bygone day when shooting was a respectable sport, there was a Skeet and Trap range on the parking lot of the LA County Fairgrounds. When the fair came to town, they would skid the houses off to the edge of the lot, plank over the pits for the trap houses, and sweep the lot to salvage the shot.
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Dunross
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This is the problem in a nutshell. What is the pH of YOUR soil and the pH of your rainfall? Twenty bucks worth of ag lime can forestall potential problems. Raise the soil pH of your berm and the ground in the immediate area and the lead should stay nicely inert.
I live in Florida. We get plenty of rainfall (usually) which is typically of a pH about 5.7. Soil pH of my local soil (million year old sand dunes) runs about the same. Because of this I prefer to reclaim my lead so that I can reuse it. If I were shooting into a dirt bank where it would not be possible to completely reclaim all of the spent lead I'd buy several bags of ag lime and treat the area to raise the soil pH to something closer to neutral so that any lost lead would stay right were it was. Minor incidental amounts of lead such as shooting pests and whatnot I am not concerned with.
Some folks live in areas where the local soil pH runs to the alkaline (the arid parts of the country for the most part) while others live in areas with plenty of rainfall where their soil pH tends to the acidic. Twenty bucks worth of ag lime can forestall potential problems.
illinoisburt
Member
Fyi 50# bags of pelleted lime at Home Depot was $4.89 each last weekend when we were getting our garden together. We also put down under the mats in our horse stalls every year - makes a big difference over time to help protect the barn walls. Easy cheap solution to your concerns.
CapnMac
Member
How much will depend upon who you ask.
US EPA would be "any"--but, that's also because they are a bloated federal agency with a lot of rice bowls to keep filled. Which is why the downwind standard for mercury release by coal-fired power plants is now lower than background. (E.g., the trace amount anywhere is now a "violation.")
The more practical aspects are discussed above.
The effects of lead on waterfowl are up in the air. Some ground birds, like chickens and the like, ingest pebbles to aid in digestion. Not all waterfowl do so. The evidence on that is actually contested within biology circles, but that controversy has not spilled into popular press. And regulatory agencies are certainly not going to share any indication that the science is not "settled."
Now, that's chemical contamination from gas & chemical warfare largely, and not lead, but there is some high explosive chemical residue, too.
One of the tricky things about indoor shooting is not projectile lead, but vaporized lead from primers, which, by its nature is chemically reactive (has to be to be able to compound it into lead styphanate and the like).
US EPA would be "any"--but, that's also because they are a bloated federal agency with a lot of rice bowls to keep filled. Which is why the downwind standard for mercury release by coal-fired power plants is now lower than background. (E.g., the trace amount anywhere is now a "violation.")
The more practical aspects are discussed above.
The effects of lead on waterfowl are up in the air. Some ground birds, like chickens and the like, ingest pebbles to aid in digestion. Not all waterfowl do so. The evidence on that is actually contested within biology circles, but that controversy has not spilled into popular press. And regulatory agencies are certainly not going to share any indication that the science is not "settled."
France still has zones rouge, Red Zones, where battlefield contamination is high enough to bar agricultural use.
Now, that's chemical contamination from gas & chemical warfare largely, and not lead, but there is some high explosive chemical residue, too.
One of the tricky things about indoor shooting is not projectile lead, but vaporized lead from primers, which, by its nature is chemically reactive (has to be to be able to compound it into lead styphanate and the like).
JJFitch
Member
Any amount of lead that hits the ground is considered an EPA problem. Just don't ask any questions at any government agency. That's when it really becomes a problem for you.
Just keep the area as clean as possible and away from any area it can get into your water system.
Test your water every year as well as get your blood tested every year.
Smiles,
shoobe01
Member
Zero lead level is from science. You and I are fine with middling levels, kids are not. ANY measurable level of lead compound ingestion causes developmental disorders.
Anyway, agree about outdoor backstops not being an issue generally, but it varies based on region and how much you are accountable for it. Here's one paper that discusses early on how different regions (here, FL) have different issues. https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclp...mination in Shooting Range Soils-Hardison.pdf
Hard backstops are an issue not just from richochets but vaporizing the lead, which makes it easier to become dangerous.
I have also seen lead level testing show serious issues at the firing line (lead compounds in primers etc are truly dangerous when ingested). This is often a big deal because it may be much closer to the house, and when no firing is occurring is where pets and children may play. Also think hard about where runoff from those areas will go, to avoid contaminating your vegetable garden or water supply.
And... I had half a dozen other links to safe range design, simple lead remediation (with plants and so on), etc. but all are dead
Anyway, agree about outdoor backstops not being an issue generally, but it varies based on region and how much you are accountable for it. Here's one paper that discusses early on how different regions (here, FL) have different issues. https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclp...mination in Shooting Range Soils-Hardison.pdf
Hard backstops are an issue not just from richochets but vaporizing the lead, which makes it easier to become dangerous.
I have also seen lead level testing show serious issues at the firing line (lead compounds in primers etc are truly dangerous when ingested). This is often a big deal because it may be much closer to the house, and when no firing is occurring is where pets and children may play. Also think hard about where runoff from those areas will go, to avoid contaminating your vegetable garden or water supply.
And... I had half a dozen other links to safe range design, simple lead remediation (with plants and so on), etc. but all are dead
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