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How many know?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by tpaw, Aug 12, 2008.

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  1. tpaw

    tpaw Member

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    I was just wondering. As a concealed carry handgun owner (LEO not included), how many of you definitively know all the circumstances when you can use deadly physical force. Did you take a course, or read your states laws on your own?
     
  2. Kind of Blued

    Kind of Blued Member

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    You'd darn well better.
     
  3. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    They are supposed to teach that in a CCW course. Ours taught the "pyramid" where deadly force is justified (I think it's pretty universal, most states likely do). Ability, Opportunity, Intent. Gotta meet all 3 (and intent is usually the one that gets argued most in court since it gets into gray "reasonable person" territory).
     
  4. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    Definitively know all the circumstances? That's a pretty tall order. I suspect you'd have a hard time finding many folks who know what they are talking about who claim to know all the circumstances.
     
  5. Huddog

    Huddog Member

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    Georgia doesn't require a CCW course. You are of course held to the standard of knowing when it is appropriate to use your weapon for self defense. The Statutes are easily available on line and numerous books and forums address these issues. It is extremely irresponsible to ccw and not know the rules of how and when its use is appropriate. Not to mention the fact that improper use of lethal force will get you arrested and sued. If one does not know one need not carry.
     
  6. neviander

    neviander Member

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    "Definitively" depends on an infinite number of variables....and your lawyer. As prepared as one can be for a firefight, when one might break out is 'definitively' unpredictable :D
     
  7. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    Except the US, save Louisana, is a common law legal system which means that simply knowing the statutes won't give you a definitive view of all the circumstances.
     
  8. tpaw

    tpaw Member

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    Just wanted to share this from another poster on a different site:


     
  9. Mot45acp

    Mot45acp Member

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    From a personal aspect I do.

    My state allows me to pursue and fire as long as I dont lose line of sight.

    From a moral aspect I prolly wont unless wife or kids are in danger. ( I still gotta sleep at night and look at myself in the mirror.)
     
  10. SCKimberFan

    SCKimberFan Member

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    This I know: If my life is in danger by the actions of another, I will use whatever force is necessary.
     
  11. tigre

    tigre Member

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    Morally: when someone forces me to choose between my life and theirs.

    Legally: I've done some reading on my own and am planning on going to a dedicated self-defense course, but my CCW class covered basic ideas about escalating use of force, threat pyramid, and "Ability, Opportunity, Intent" as DTD mentioned. There's always room for Monday morning quarterbacking with anything you do, and a zealous DA could try to make things difficult I guess, but I'm in a pretty self-defense-friendly state. I would like to find more information about the legal implications of defending yourself against "unarmed" assailants. I'm not a dainty little flower, but I am small enough that most men of even average build could pose a serious threat without being armed. That reminds me that I need to buy some new pepper spray, actually.
     
  12. pitbullman

    pitbullman Member

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    here in NC its pretty simple as long as one of the 3 musts(treat of death-serious injury of bodily harm or sexually asst) occur deadly force is justifiable as long as your not the aggressor
     
  13. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    I'm intrigued by this line of sight thing. Do you have statute number or a case where this is discussed?
     
  14. TIMC

    TIMC Member

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    I definitely know and anyone who carries should.
    They spent a lot of time in the class talking about it. There are even a few circumstances here in Texas where you could use deadly force that I don't think I would if the situation came up. Some things are just not worth it to me.
     
  15. jrfoxx

    jrfoxx Member

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    I've read all of OR's gun laws MANY times, and try to read any gun related cases I can find too.reading the law is one thing, but it's how it tends to be applied/interpreted in your area that is most important, IMHO. The law can seem pretty clear-cut and obvious, but nearly all laws, when lawyers/judges get involved, can be interpreted in many slightly different ways, depending on circumstances, and just a minor variation in interpretation/application can mean the difference between no charges, areested but DA doesnt want to push it, ending up in court but winning at trial, and going to prison. Reading case law never ceases to amaze me at the ingenuity of judges/lawyers in their reading/presentation of the law, and the way a jury can decide in the end can be pretty wild too.

    I, with my non-legal training, would definitely reccomend reading all the local/state cases on guns/SD shoots you can. It's VERY useful info, and may make the difference in jail/no jail. Plus, its the judges/DA's/juties reading of the law that counts in the end, not ours.
     
  16. OOOXOOO

    OOOXOOO Member

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    In AZ to get a permit you must attend 16 hours of training. Twelve hours were dedicated to leagl matters dealing with CCW. Four hours of the class were taught by a practicing lawer. I thought the class was worth takeing even if you did not CC.
     
  17. SHavis

    SHavis Member

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  18. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Some states don't have training requirements. Ohio does. The Ohio Attorney General puts out a very useful book on CCW. You can either get a printed copy or download it from the AG's website.
     
  19. possum_128

    possum_128 Member

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    Read the laws. I know them very,very well. As should anyone who owns a gun.
     
  20. jackstinson

    jackstinson Member

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    Yup! Good reading.
    Of course, some of that changes for the better on September 9th, when our version of the Castle Doctrine becomes law.
     
  21. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    I always hate the "when do I get to shoot" questions. Save the gun for when your life is in danger and you have no choice but to shoot and you'll cut down on your chances for trouble.
     
  22. tpaw

    tpaw Member

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    MOT45acp:
    Can you document that? And for what crimes?
     
  23. Mike Franklin

    Mike Franklin Member

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    I'd like to know this too?
     
  24. glockman19

    glockman19 Member

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    Both. I took and continue to train for Self Defense and YES Before traveling I make sure to know the laws of every state I'll be traveling in in addition to a copy of their CCW laws.
     
  25. Scattergun Bob

    Scattergun Bob Member

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    tpaw

    Yes, I have studied the self defense laws that apply for CPL in the state of WA. However this is not a shield that will protect you from a mistake.

    On thing is for sure if you are ever involved in the bloody, vomit inducing, viscera exposing, utterly terrifying catastrophic event called killing another human being to save ourselves, trying to interpret a vague and complicated criminal code for your state and apply it in the 3/5 of a second we have to make our choices is of no value toward your survival.

    I "believe" each CCW individual NEED a set of rules that can INSTANTLY guide them thru "threat Identification, threat assessment, and threat nullification".

    Below are a set of rules that have been kicking around for a long while, many have taken credit for them, I do not. I do use them and perhaps they can shed some light your way.

    My Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry


    1. My concealed handgun is for protection of life only.

    Draw it only in preparation to protect myself or my family from the willful and wanton life-threatening actions of another.


    2. Know exactly when I can use my gun.

    A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:

    the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)

    the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)

    his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough)

    When all 3 of these element are in place simultaneously, THIS IS A THREAT STIMULUS!
    The response to threat stimulus ; zero muzzle, flash sight picture, exercise trigger control, deliver a minimum response.

    3. If I can move away safely - THEN RUN
    If I force a confrontation I risk the possibility of myself or a family member being killed, criminal liability, arrest. I will flee if I can, fight only as a last resort.

    The BEST gunfight that ever was, was the one that never happened!

    4. Display my gun, go to jail.
    I should expect to be arrested by the police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime I expose my concealed handgun to another citizen in public! I must continue to perfect a carry method that keeps my pistol reliably hidden from the general public view. Before I deliberately expose my pistol in public, I must ask myself "is this issue worth going to Jail".

    5. Don't let my emotions get the best of me.

    THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU. If, despite my efforts, I do get into some kind of heated dispute with another while I am armed, never mention, imply, or exhibit my pistol to intimidate.

    I hope this is of some value, Good Luck & Be Safe
     
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