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How many of you run your suppressor wet?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by Texasgrillchef, Jul 14, 2019 at 5:06 AM.

  1. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    How many of you run your suppressor wet?
    I have ordered a Dead Air Ghost-M with extra wipes And Odessa-9

    What fluid do you use? Straight water, ultrasound gel, other?
     
  2. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    I have used water before just to see what difference it made in my Form 1 rifle can.

    Results were not terribly impressive, more effort than it was worth, and, in hindsight, probably contributed to the freeze-plug stack getting stuck in the tube.
     
  3. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    For playing on the range, water will offer the most suppression and easiest clean up, but you do need to clean them promptly, since the moisture will promote corrosion. Don't use water in a sealed can.

    For using it in a more dynamic fashion, some kind of gel or grease ablative that will stay put. What works best is a process of trial & error. I generally like white lithium grease.

    Pay attention to how much ablative you use, too. I wouldn't put more than a teaspoon in a typical pistol can. And in case you're not aware, ablatives are NOT a good idea with high velocity rifle rounds, and won't do much for them anyway.
     
  4. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    I usually run my full size can dry and my micro suppressor (Poseidon) wet/wiped.

    On the full sized can, it is comfortable enough without ablative that it doesn't make sense for me to be taking it off, disassembling it, putting in ablative, and then putting it all back together again just to get the sound a bit quieter.

    On the Poseidon, I'm already taking it apart to replace wipes, so I usually add in ablative as part of my wipe replacement process.

    As far as what to use, I tend to use wire pulling gel.
     
  5. mcb

    mcb Member

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    I have run water in my SDN-6 and it made a small but noticeable improvement. The biggest thing was it really reduced the first round pop.
     
  6. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    Question:
    What is the approximate time between when a first pop returns? I realize it depends on the can.
    But say I fire one shot then a second shot, then wait 10 min, is the first pop going to return?
     
  7. mcb

    mcb Member

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    That is going to be tough to constrain. If you wait with the action open, pointed up on a windy day your going to get very different results than a calm day, with the action close, laying horizontal.
     
  8. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    Guess i am wondering what causes the pop and what causes it to go away.
     
  9. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    https://www.silencershop.com/blog/post/first-round-pop/

    TLDR version: Oxygen in the can interacting with still burning powder causes the pop. After the first shot, there's no more oxygen in the can. Over time, gasses in the can will diffuse with the surrounding air, and oxygen will be present in the can again. As mentioned above, the amount of time it takes for this to occur will vary depending on conditions.
     
  10. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I almost never do. I have played with it though, ultrasound gel seems to work the best but for me it’s a waste of time to fiddle. If I am hunting, the last thing I want to do is add another variable into the equation. The rest of the time the first shot doesn’t matter.
     
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  11. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    10 minutes, almost certainly. As mentioned, there are a number of variables, but as soon as there's enough oxygen back in the blast chamber, you get pop.

    FRP isn't really an issue with high velocity rifle rounds. It's there, but masked by the higher overall SPL and sonic crack. I have never been able to discern a first shot being louder than subsequent with supersonic rifle rounds beyond standard shot-to-shot variation.

    With full sized pistol suppressors, it's noticeable, especially with monocores. Good baffled designs tend to not have nearly as much, if any.

    Pistol "K" cans (shorties) are serious offenders without ablatives, first round and subsequent. I have a 5.5" version of my Phoenix XLV .45 cal; it's not hearing safe dry, but with ablative, it's nearly as quiet as the full 9" modular version is without, and the first round is barely louder than subsequent.

    FRP can be very noticeable on .22 LR with pistol hosts, as much as 10 dB. And shorty rimfire cans, like pistol K cans, benefit substantially from ablative for first and subsequent shots.
     
  12. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    So hypothetically, (not realistically) if one filled their can with co2 and removed the oxygen... then there would be no pop?
     
  13. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Oh, it can be realistically done... if it *really* mattered to you.

    IMG_1140.jpg

    https://discreetballistics.com/shop/popstop/
     
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  14. GE-Mini-Gun

    GE-Mini-Gun Member

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    Use it all the time with mine...wire pulling gel from Lowes
     
  15. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    Theoretically, sure. Or you could use water or another ablative. FRP usually isn't that bad though, so while it gets a lot of talk (especially in suppressor reviews) most people just deal with a few extra dB for the first shot and then move on. I can't speak for all cans, but for the most part even with FRP you're still well within hearing safe.
     
  16. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    But using water or something else, keeps everything quieter beyond just the first round as well, where as the co2 only helps first round pop, unless your doing a squirt of co2 after every shot or every couple of shots. Or am I wrong?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019 at 11:49 PM
  17. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    It looks as though this uses a typical type air connection, which now makes me wonder. (Negating any true practicality of course) if one hooks up a feed line from that connection to a co2 regulator. (I use co2 tanks on my truck to operate air lockers as well as have several tanks for tire repair and to operate air tools) and turn on and have a constant flow of co2 gas running through it. I would wonder what effect it would have on FRP and additional shots. Would it act like having a “wet” can. Would the constant low flow of co2 cause any issues on the bullet, slowing it down. What effects on total noise would it have I wonder.

    Yes I know it’s not really practical, but we humans make many things that aren’t practical just to say it’s been done, or to prove a point.

    Btw while that device seems cool, on my co2 tanks I have a “needle” so that I can fill up basketballs, footballs with air from my co2 tank. I don’t see why I couldn’t stick the needle into the muzzle end for a second or two and fill the can up with co2 that way faster and easier to proven frp
     
  18. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    You're way overthinking this.

    FRP really only matters if you have a crappy can. Otherwise it's a "hmm, that second one might have been a hair softer than the first..." kind of thing.

    To your question, a very simplistic view is that ablative helps cool the gasses from firing. Cooler gasses take up less space than hot gasses, so less sound signature. This works from the first shot until there is no more ablative in the can.

    As discussed above, FRP is caused by oxygen in the can on the first shot. After that shot, the oxygen is burned and subsequent shots aren't affected. CO2 just purges the oxygen from the can before the first shot is fired. It only affects FRP, not overall sound level of subsequent shots. Running constant CO2 through the can between shots won't do anything other than mess with the flow of the gas inside the can. Worst case you pressurize the can and lose performance.

    I know it's fun to play with new toys and I've done plenty of things that aren't practical, but CO2 is getting well into diminishing returns. I don't know anyone who sees enough benefit to CO2 to regularly use it.
     
  19. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    First off, this is all just a discussion for the sole purpose of understanding. I am honestly not to worried about FRP in real life once I get my suppressors that I am on eternal wait with the NFA. A ghost-M and a Odessa-9. Both of which are suppose to be awesome cans. Both can be used wet. I will probably use them wet at the range sometimes. What media I use I don’t know yet. Probably just water or ultrasound gel.

    But like I said all my questions are just to learn more about what makes them work better etc even if in the real world it isn’t a practical application.

    I’m all about simplicity in use. The so call KISS principal in actual practice.

    I do appreciate your answer though.
     
  20. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    No worries at all. These theoretical discussions are always interesting (and honestly they're much more fun than the "tell me how many guns you have" threads). Just wanted to make sure we had a little bit of real world use interjected. Didn't mean to come down too hard on you :thumbup:
     
  21. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    The environment in a suppressor is mostly purged of oxygen after the first round. The reason liquid or gel ablatives (especially water) work better is that they do more than just prevent ignition of and flame propagation with oxygen in the can; they can actually extinguish some of the flame front coming out of the muzzle. Gunpowder contains it's own oxidizers, so it's more helpful to have something that quenches flames than simply depriving the environment of some of the oxygen.
     
  22. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    I would reason that the phase change involved going from liquid-gas is where running a can wet gets it's performance from. Ultimately, all the can is doing is taking a rapidly expanding quantity of gas and slowing down that expansion (you are slowing the propagation of the pressure wave at each baffle by choking the flow of gas) while providing a path for heat to flow which reduces the pressure of the hot gas in the first place. In each subsequent volume you are also dropping the pressure.

    If a liquid is present, espescialy one that gets dispersed by the passing shock wave in the can, it will soak up the energy in the gasses. You can't really stuff a lot of heat into a liquid, but changing phases will do the trick... for water you are looking at around 2,200 J/g to change from liquid to gas, while going from freezing to boiling is only about 400 J/g (for reference, gunpowder contains 5,000-11,000 J/g of stored energy). Taking that heat out of the gas to vaporize the liquid drops the pressure of the gas which reduces the speed that the pressure wave is moving at as well as reducing the magnitude of that wave.

    Granted, this a a very back-of-the-envelope analysis of the process that doesn't go into the details of how much time it takes for that energy to flow... but overall slower, smaller pressure waves make less noise.
     
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