How much are we willing to give up?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by M118LR, Feb 23, 2018.

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  1. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    So the purpose of all your proposed concessions is next time there is a shooting we can say it's not our fault, the guy is a nut.
    Great plan stick to it and surrender any of your possessions and rights you think are a problem.
     
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  2. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

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    I’m not willing to give up anything. In fact, I dearly wish GCA ‘68 could go away.

    I do firmly believe my stance will be ignored as a matter of course. I can write, speak, yell, protest, and support my cause all I want. But I do not have the bully pulpit. Children who eat tide pods do; they care naught about individual liberty and more about perceived safety, and they are being catered to and “cared about”. They’ve been given the microphone so they can be “heard”.

    Whether a conciliatory gesture is offered by “our side” or not, liberty is going to be forceably chipped away; this chip may likely be a bit bigger than others.

    The Second Amendment is the canary in the coal mine. And it’s headed down the mine shaft once again.
     
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  3. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Damn. That's exactly the wish list of the antigunners (for now). You realize, of course, that although you may stop there, the antigunners won't. They won't stop until they've achieved their "gun-free America."
     
  4. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    If that happens, then it gets thrown back to Congress. And the danger is that if Congress legislates (which it will be under enormous pressure to do), the end result may go far beyond bump stocks. Therefore, I suspect that the ATF will be forced by the Administration to reverse position, and rule that bump stocks are "conversion devices" and therefore machine guns. And then we'll all have to deal with the multiple logical consequences of that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  5. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    You realize the Universal Background Checks are the registration of all gun buyers by the Federal Government.
     
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  6. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for the Anti speech of the day, but guns are not the problem.

    Something I guess you can't see, or don't want to see, or you're just another one of the " I like guns, but guns are the problem and we need to give in" kind of anti.

    Either way, your post is as flawed as the antis "common sense".
     
  7. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    You DO realize that ISIS is advocating the use of running down folks with cars and trucks in Europe. right ? Why do you suppose that is ?

    Did you also realize that the Las Vegas shooter had 50 lbs of Tannerite in his car ? My guess was to blow up the car in some part of a getaway plan. I'm just bringing this up to show that killers are creative and will find ways to get other alternative means of destruction.

    Timothy McVeigh

    I do agree with you on one thing tho, IT IS OUR PROBLEM.

    Just that the response should not be any further gun bans.

    IMHO The failures in Parkland were (in order of importance):

    1. Nikolas Cruz
    2. Sherrif Scott Israel and his deputies.
    3. The FBI
    4. The Florida mental health counselors that examined Cruz
    5. The School district for having a single deputy on-site for 3000 students.

    The response from us should directly address THESE issues FIRST (addressing the above 1-5 points in order):

    1. Enhance NICS so that individuals requiring mental treatment do not pass NICS
    2. Replace Sheriff Israel.
    3. Enact local and federal programs to require mental health restrictions to be entered into NICS and that the FBI runs it's tips through NICS
    4. Retrain (if necessary) and empower mental health officials to issue restraining orders with 4th amendment protections. These are entered in NICS.
    5. Ensure all schools have at least one professional security officer per 1000 students.

    In addition, I strongly support CCW universally and the dismantling of 'gun free' zones in schools and elsewhere.

    and IMHO our response should include a national CCW reciprocity law.
     
  8. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Absolutely not.

    Don't tell me, let me guess. You like semi auto pistols but semi auto rifles arent your thing.

    I think it was the V-Tech shooter that only used pistols.

    BTW, Far more people are shot with pistols than all rifles and shotgun combined according to the FBI.



    Its a social/mental issue now; always has been and always will be.

    If kicking the can down the road makes you feel good now, the way in see it, your part of the problem
     
  9. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    This was basically done decades ago, and those of us who have been around understand that nothing short of total confiscation is their end goal and that they are content to chip away at the stone for decades more it need be. You are offering a great many chips in the stone, and at a time where it will be very difficult to get the votes for any of it. Now is certainly not the time to budge an inch, as if any time is.
     
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  10. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    What he has described is the epitome of my description of how we have failed Negotiations 102.

    On top of that, he's offering to break the stone in half all while NOT addressing ANY of the root causes.
     
  11. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    For the sake of intellectual honesty, I have to say that UBC's could be set up in such a way as to not create a usable gun registry. For example, you could clear the person and not the gun. Sen. Tom Coburn proposed such a system after Sandy Hook, but it didn't go anywhere.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  12. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    No.That's overbroad. "Requiring mental treatment" could mean a lot of things. Many "mental illnesses" do not pose a threat. And what about due process, that is, allowing the individual to have his day in court, so that his side could be heard?
     
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  13. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I'm not familiar enough with the Coburn proposal to comment specifically to that.

    But I do agree that it's possible for private sales.
     
  14. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Remember your carry course where intent, opportunity and means were required before you could be assured of a credible threat? The means isn't a cause. When we look for a cause we look for what started the chain of events that lead to the incident. The firearm is simply the equipment used by the person carrying out the attack. It doesn't act, it is used. If you want to look at severity factors you might look at the firearm, but it can't be treated as a cause.

    If we want to address the cause of these horrific tragedies then we need to look at the motivation of the individual, their mental state, and what was and wasn't done to address those to have prevented their act.

    If you only want to try to deal with the means then we only end up finding a different means used after this tool is restricted. Instead we should be looking at countries with similar percentages of households with similar firearms (Canada, Switzerland, Finland/Norway) and ask what makes their RATES (gross numbers are misleading) of murders and mass shootings and school mass shootings so different. If 25% to 35% of households (or 45% in Switzerland) in the US, Canada, Finland, Norway and Switzerland have access to similar semiauto rifles why does the US have a much higher rate? What is it that makes those countries so much safer? It isn't that they don't have access to magazine fed semiauto firearms.

    Is mental illness stigmatized like the US? Does their mental health system do a better job of identifying and helping sufferers (almost a rhetorical question)? Is violence stigmatized so that society doesn't find it acceptable? Are schools better equipped to recognize and help young people who appear to have problems? Are the cultures more comfortable with the presence of firearms as something other than weapons to hurt people? What are the differences between the US and these other countries that have the same firearms and similar % of households with them?
     
  15. 76shuvlinoff

    76shuvlinoff Member

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    ... and another thing, the whole "weapons of war" thing is just a smokescreen scare tactic for non gun owners. Just another boogeymen under the bed to intimidate the intimidated. All firearms were once, or are based on, weapons of war.
     
  16. 2ifbyC

    2ifbyC Member

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    “How much are WE willing to give up?”

    What’s this “WE” white man? (Taken from the Lone Ranger joke). Subtly, the joke portrays a staunch reminder of how “compromising” your rights will lead to nothing.

    Bring focus to the true cause of this latest tragedy; the failure of the government. Enforce the existing laws and let the 2nd amendment, without further erosion, protect law-abiding gun owners.
     
  17. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    I get your point but compromising our rights will certainly lead to something and it won't be good.
     
  18. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Probably, but only if the heat is still on. POTUS only instructed AGUS to act on it, if Sessions cannot come up with a satisfactory plan out of ATF, then it's "Sorry, Boss, nothing we can do." And if the tempest in a teapot has settled down (a reasonable wager), NBD.

    I agree, the lefties would howl, but if the pot is no longer boiling, it will be hard to get traction.

    I also agree that bumpstocks are a canard, an action which only affects a tiny minoirty. If, by making a precendent that ATF gets to arbitrairily invent rules at administration whim. Oh wait . . .
     
  19. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Keep reading, that's the 4th Amendment which I explicitly cited in remedy #4.

     
  20. Hokkmike

    Hokkmike Member

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    What I am willing to allow may not be in my control. The inevitability of some kind of gun control in the wake of the latest school shooting weighs heavily. Our 2A right hangs in a delicate balance subject to the whim of electoral numbers. Unless we can gain a new and populist direction to actively counter the huge emotional wave that the media and liberal politicians are riding then we are in real danger of seeing the Constitution compromised. The NRA and gun supporters in general are portrayed as having "blood on their hands". It is as if we are the cause of these mass murders. This is a ridiculous lie - but some, too many - believe it is true. It is a narrative which is gaining wider and wider acceptance. Maybe the question should not be "What are we willing to give up?", but rather "What are we willing to do?".
     
  21. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    It takes means, motive, and opportunity -- all three factors -- for a crime to take place. If you remove any one of the three factors, the crime doesn't take place.

    The gun debate focuses only on the means. Let's think about this for a minute. If guns are removed as possible means, the perpetrator can switch to other means. Explosives and arson come to mind, and those might result in higher casualties than guns. But OK, let's limit ourselves to guns. No feasible measure will eliminate guns entirely from society. There are just too many of them. Perpetrators will always be able to get guns -- the degree of difficulty in getting them will just be a little greater. So, attacking the means is an ineffective way of addressing school mayhem.

    That leaves us with denying opportunity (by hardening schools), and identifying people who have the motive to carry out such massacres. This is where good intelligence work comes into its own. Since 9/11, we have made great strides in tracking potential Islamic jihadists. That same methodology can be used to shift through warning signs that someone might become a school shooter. Then he can be watched closely, counseled, etc., to prevent the incident from ever taking place.
     
  22. Nashtah

    Nashtah Member

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    I have to agree that enforcing the current large number of gun laws should be a far higher priority than making new laws. I know of almost no cases where school or mass shooters legally acquired the guns used. I am sure that there is at least one time it happened so will not say it has never happened.

    More laws do not stop criminals from breaking the law.

    I attended what students jokingly called the most armed school in America in 2002-6. This was a high school that had around 250 guns on campus daily, mostly in student cars however about 70 were carried by students into the classrooms. Please note the school only had 750 students and in addition to the guns had about 600 knives carried. I had locked my pistol in my locker only to find a form the city police saying not to store it in my locker and next time it would have to be picked up from the police station with proof of ownership, this had me carrying it my backpack. I used the pistol for shooting after school with friends. In the 1980’s the office used a 12 by 12 foot room set up as a gun safe for student guns however the safe was repurposed as a storeroom in the 1990’s. In no way is the large carrying of guns in this school the world's safest way to store guns but this school has had no school shootings. The metal shop also had a shop rule of no storing rifles in the lockers in the shop, as it was a common problem.


    One of the largest things that stands out is the high number of teachers killed in this last shooting. They tried to help the students but lacked the ability to end it.


    Due to my public school experience I hold that more not less guns can help or solve the problem as long as everyone agrees that shooting other people is wrong. The largest problem is the lack of belief that shooting others is wrong and without fixing this there will never be a solution. One armed guard at a school of 3000 students can never solve the problem due to the pure number of doors people can enter and exit from. Also hiring more guard instead of trying to fix behavior cannot be a long-term solution.
     
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  23. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Another way of saying this is that things may reach the point where measures are taken without our input, and then the question "How much are we willing to give up?" becomes a moot point. We will not be asked.

    This is why some flexibility is needed, instead of simply braying "Not one more inch!" You can afford to say "Not one more inch!" when you are holding all the cards. If not, well, it may become time to negotiate, to salvage the best deal possible.

    I'm not being a defeatist here. We have not reached that stage yet.
     
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  24. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    With all due respect, you haven't exactly come across as for gun owners any more than ole gbw has.

    The we have to give something up crowd just slay me, and they need to learn more about the history of gun control and its proponents.

    The answer is no more gun control and to fight for it as hard as we can without fear. ;)
     
  25. joed

    joed Member

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    And that is the absolute truth. I've been around a long time and have to totally agree with the above, they won't stop. I've watched for 49 years, from the time I was 20 and I don't care what you give to the antis, they will not stop. If you give what has been proposed 6 months from now the same thing will happen again and the antis will want more.

    And I look at people like gbw that will give up everything and shake my head. I'd bet money he isn't even an NRA member because he doesn't care. I care not only for me but for our sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters.
     
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