I see that most everyone on the board carries their 1911's cocked and locked. The reason I am asking of how safe they are, is that I just bought my first 1911, a Kimber, and in the manual it says to never carry it cocked, and never carry a round in the chamber. I realize for SD purposes that a round not in the chamber is in essence me carrying a brick. But as far as it being cocked, why would Kimber say not to do this? Is it really a safety issue, or is it just legal reasons for them having to state that?
How safe are 1911's to carry cocked and locked?
- Thread starter Topgun121
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geronimo509
Member
Use the search function, there are a million topics on this.
orchidhunter
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Topgun121, That is Kimber looking out for Kimber. It is as safe as you are, to carry a 1911 type pistol cocked and locked. orchidhunter
exflatlander
Member
"why would Kimber say not to do this"
Lawyers
Lawyers
General Geoff
Member
Cocked & locked, THREE separate actions must happen for the weapon to be discharged.
1. The manual safety switch must be disengaged.
2. The grip safety must be engaged.
3. The trigger must be pulled.
That seems pretty safe to me. Millions of others over the past 100 yards would probably agree.
1. The manual safety switch must be disengaged.
2. The grip safety must be engaged.
3. The trigger must be pulled.
That seems pretty safe to me. Millions of others over the past 100 yards would probably agree.
CrankyOldGuy
Member
I've never carried a 1911 any other way but condition 1.
It is designed to be carried in this manner.
Otherwise you have an awkward club.
There is enough delay presenting from a holster, particularly if the presentation is from a concealed carry location. If you need to draw a handgun, someone is in imminent danger of grevious bodily injury, extra time may not be a luxury you can afford.
You do need to learn and practice how to properly draw the 1911, and at what step to disengage the manual safety. (as well as how to re-engage and properly holster)
As far as why Kimber says this, I've never seen any firearms manufacturer recommend a chambered round for carry. The lawyers win on this one. But common sense dictates otherwise.
It is designed to be carried in this manner.
Otherwise you have an awkward club.
There is enough delay presenting from a holster, particularly if the presentation is from a concealed carry location. If you need to draw a handgun, someone is in imminent danger of grevious bodily injury, extra time may not be a luxury you can afford.
You do need to learn and practice how to properly draw the 1911, and at what step to disengage the manual safety. (as well as how to re-engage and properly holster)
As far as why Kimber says this, I've never seen any firearms manufacturer recommend a chambered round for carry. The lawyers win on this one. But common sense dictates otherwise.
I always carry mine cocked and locked, in my opinion there is no other safer gun out there if you are going to carry for SD. As it has been said you have to disengage the thumb safety, grip it to disengage the grip safety, put your finger on the trigger, and then pull it before it will go off. Now you will find some people who argue against carrying a 1911 for those very same reasons, stating that it takes to many things to happen before you can shoot the gun and that is why they won't carry one and instead carry other configurations ie, DAO,DA/SA, etc. Go out and shoot the crap out of your new Kimber and become familiar and confident with it. If you can try to take a firearms course from a reputable trainer to further educate and become more proficient with your gun. Good luck to you.
FoMoGo
Member
The 1911 was actually designed WITHOUT a thumb safety.
The thumb safety was added at the request of the cavalry.
Cocked and locked didnt become popular till Jeff Cooper started advocating it.
I carry mine C&L too tho.
Jim
dmazur
Member
I have Colt Commanders from two different "generations" of manufacture. The first one is a "pre-80" and it came with an owner's manual that included instructions on how to detail-strip it. There is a caution, "When the pistol is loaded, do not allow the hammer to remain in the Safety (half cock) notch." There is a great explanation of how the 1911 works, including delayed blowback. There is nothing about modes of carry, and, while the various safeties are described, there is nothing describing when the Safety Lock (thumb safety) should be used.
The second is a Series 80 Commander. Its manual is quite a bit different. There is no description on detail-stripping. In fact, the manual says, "Do not strip your pistol further than previously described." There is a new section, "Carrying Modes", that describes
Mode 1: Magazine empty, chamber empty
Mode 2: Magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down
Mode 3: Magazine loaded, chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on
Colt advises the owner to use Mode 2 (Condition 3) when carrying the pistol ready for use, and to use Mode 3 (Condition 1) when you must be prepared to use the pistol immediately without warning.
I also like the repeated warning
"Warning: When you squeeze the trigger, you must expect the gun to fire and you must take full responsibility for firing it. Your care can avoid accidental discharge, and you will thereby avoid accidental injury and death."
So, yes, times have changed. The courts have forced the manufacturers to bend over backwards to try to make a product, and a user's manual, that is idiot-proof. It is not a reassuring development. If you don't follow the user's manual, you are afraid you are doing something wrong. What's worse, you might be afraid it will be used against you at some time in the future.
Other than the addition of the firing pin safety, there is no functional difference between these two pistols. Yet look at the difference in the manuals!
Do I carry both in Condition 1? Sure. Do I detail-strip both? Sure.
(However, I am aware that the older Commander doesn't have a firing pin safety. I replaced its firing pin with a titanium one, duplicating what Springfield Armory did to get its 1911's to pass a drop test.)
It's a shame to see common sense, useful information being replaced by "fear of litigation" nonsense.
The second is a Series 80 Commander. Its manual is quite a bit different. There is no description on detail-stripping. In fact, the manual says, "Do not strip your pistol further than previously described." There is a new section, "Carrying Modes", that describes
Mode 1: Magazine empty, chamber empty
Mode 2: Magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down
Mode 3: Magazine loaded, chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on
Colt advises the owner to use Mode 2 (Condition 3) when carrying the pistol ready for use, and to use Mode 3 (Condition 1) when you must be prepared to use the pistol immediately without warning.
I also like the repeated warning
"Warning: When you squeeze the trigger, you must expect the gun to fire and you must take full responsibility for firing it. Your care can avoid accidental discharge, and you will thereby avoid accidental injury and death."
So, yes, times have changed. The courts have forced the manufacturers to bend over backwards to try to make a product, and a user's manual, that is idiot-proof. It is not a reassuring development. If you don't follow the user's manual, you are afraid you are doing something wrong. What's worse, you might be afraid it will be used against you at some time in the future.
Other than the addition of the firing pin safety, there is no functional difference between these two pistols. Yet look at the difference in the manuals!
Do I carry both in Condition 1? Sure. Do I detail-strip both? Sure.
(However, I am aware that the older Commander doesn't have a firing pin safety. I replaced its firing pin with a titanium one, duplicating what Springfield Armory did to get its 1911's to pass a drop test.)
It's a shame to see common sense, useful information being replaced by "fear of litigation" nonsense.
PcolaDawg
Member
Hey guys, I know this topic has probably been beat to death, but I'm a handgun noob and this has really helped. I was scared to carry my new Kimber cocked and locked. Meanwhile, I have no worry at all carrying my revolvers with a round in the chamber, even though they have no safety at all other than my trigger finger.
So, even though many of you are repeating the obvious, and repeating things you've learned ages ago, it's helped me to see the obvious.
So thanks.
So, even though many of you are repeating the obvious, and repeating things you've learned ages ago, it's helped me to see the obvious.
So thanks.
nalioth
Member
The manual was written by lawyers.Topgun121 said:
Welcome to the 21st Century.
1911shooter
Member
Its a safe as any other type of carry for pistols its the guy behind it that makes it dangerous. i carry a 1911 everyday, and i own a whole lot of them they are one of the finest no i'm sorry the finest fighting pistol ever made. the only reason the Kimber manual states to never ever carry with the hammer cocked and the chamber loaded is that the manual was written by lawyers. this way if you shoot your self they can say see we told them not to bo that. and they are safe from all liability. then again if you shoot your self with it you already broke one of the most impotant safty rules of all. keep your finger of the trigger till you are on target.
Thanks for the relpies. i realize the 'cocked and locked' issue has been debated, it is just the 'legal/instruction manual' part that got me thinking. If I were involved in a shooting, I would hate to be bastardized by the courts since my 'instruction manual' said never to carry that way, therefore, I am negligent or some bull.
Deanimator
Member
That's the ONE thing that I've NEVER seen ANY evidence of, PERIOD.
You can debate reloads for self-defense.
You can debate hollowpoints for self-defense.
You can debate trigger jobs for self-defense.
I've NEVER even HEARD of cocked and locked being an issue.
Of course if your firearm isn't in a state where it can be used for self-defense, you'll never be arrested or sued for using it. The guy who murders you might, though.
SSN Vet
Member
well if you can prevent yourself from doing the following three things ...
1. depressing grip safety
2. flipping off the thumb safety
3. pulling the trigger
4. pointing the firearm at something you don't want to shoot
then it should be very safe.
1. depressing grip safety
2. flipping off the thumb safety
3. pulling the trigger
4. pointing the firearm at something you don't want to shoot
then it should be very safe.
Elbert P . Suggins
Member
After sliding one into the chamber do some if not all of you reload another round into the magazine or do you leave it at that? And does a full 1911 magazine under a full chamber cause any problems with the second round? And I have a SA GI.
burningsquirrels
Member
millions for almost a hundred years agree - this is a cock n' lock pistol.
is it safe? read above.
that kimber manual is probably just for legal crap, before some hippie liberal or brady bunch carries it loaded, shoots self in foot, and sues kimber for not warning him so.
is it safe? read above.
that kimber manual is probably just for legal crap, before some hippie liberal or brady bunch carries it loaded, shoots self in foot, and sues kimber for not warning him so.
brisendines
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- Joined
- Dec 21, 2008
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- 94
Been carried that way for 100 years, right? I share the opinion that the 1911 is one of the most safe pistols to carry out there. Plus, they're GORGEOUS!!!!
ModificationVt
Member
1. The manual safety switch must be disengaged.
2. The grip safety must be engaged.
3. The trigger must be pulled.
Many people carry XD's that only require Grip safety and trigger pull to fire, and MANY people carry Glock that only requires trigger pull, and most of those end up with out incident. 1911 cocked and locked is safe.
2. The grip safety must be engaged.
3. The trigger must be pulled.
Many people carry XD's that only require Grip safety and trigger pull to fire, and MANY people carry Glock that only requires trigger pull, and most of those end up with out incident. 1911 cocked and locked is safe.
Yep. C&L is the way to go with a 1911. Just remember, it's a gun, and it's dangerous. They would not be any good to us if they weren't. You still have to pull the weapon, point it at something you want to harm, take off the safety, and pull the trigger.
hk lover
Member
Cocked&locked
Just makesure you dont carry it hammer down on a live round VERY UNSAFE.When u have a chambered round and you pull the trigger to release the hammer you have defeated all the safetys except grip and keeping your finger off the trigger,THE MOST IMPORTANT SAFETY OF ALL
Just makesure you dont carry it hammer down on a live round VERY UNSAFE.When u have a chambered round and you pull the trigger to release the hammer you have defeated all the safetys except grip and keeping your finger off the trigger,THE MOST IMPORTANT SAFETY OF ALL
Doc_Jude
Member
1911 was made for condition one carry, it's two safeties away from being able to fire. What's the big deal again?
Calhoun321
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- Jan 11, 2007
- Messages
- 99
It appears from this thread that many who are carrying 1911s don't know how they work.
The short answer is that they are NOT safe to carry cocked and locked. This is because they do not have a firing pin safety. A blow to the muzzle can cause a discharge. A blow to the hammer or a failure of the sear can also cause a discharge. I 1911 in perfect working order can probably be dropped at least once in one of these ways without discharging. However, you will then have to inspect the parts such as the sear for damage. If you have a firing pin spring that is weakened through use, you will be more prone to accidental discharge.
Having said all of the above. If you like the 1911 format, and it is a fine format. I would 100% endorse the series 80 colts which do have a firing pin safety and are safe to carry.
I did carry a series 70 for a while. I changed when doing a training class with a top nationally known 1911 smith who advised me not to carry it due to the AD risk. He recommended the Colt if I wanted to stay with the 1911. Incidently, he carried a Ruger revolver (that also tells me something).
The short answer is that they are NOT safe to carry cocked and locked. This is because they do not have a firing pin safety. A blow to the muzzle can cause a discharge. A blow to the hammer or a failure of the sear can also cause a discharge. I 1911 in perfect working order can probably be dropped at least once in one of these ways without discharging. However, you will then have to inspect the parts such as the sear for damage. If you have a firing pin spring that is weakened through use, you will be more prone to accidental discharge.
Having said all of the above. If you like the 1911 format, and it is a fine format. I would 100% endorse the series 80 colts which do have a firing pin safety and are safe to carry.
I did carry a series 70 for a while. I changed when doing a training class with a top nationally known 1911 smith who advised me not to carry it due to the AD risk. He recommended the Colt if I wanted to stay with the 1911. Incidently, he carried a Ruger revolver (that also tells me something).
Guillermo
member
There is another carry condition other than cocked and locked?
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