A non issue if you don't run around beating your muzzle on things. Firing pin safeties were an answer to a non problem (please list actual accidental shootings of this nature) It is there to make lawyers happy. No other reason.
How safe are 1911's to carry cocked and locked?
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wyocarp
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I have to take issues with this kind of blanket statement that makes a lot of assumptions that are very seldom true.
Calhoun321
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Well, actually I read military analysis of the 1911 that indicated ADs from drops were a problem. I believe it was a report on testing performed by the Navy in the 50s or 60s. Its been a few years since I read it.
Again, its not just muzzle impact that can cause a discharge.
Again, its not just muzzle impact that can cause a discharge.
gc70
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Would you care to explain how a cocked and locked 1911 would have a such discharge? Reference to the excellent illustrations of the operation of the thumb safety in Volume II (pages 10-11) of Kuhnhausen's 1911 manual would be helpful in any such explanation.
maxxwilde
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Elbert Said:
I always top off my magazine. Never had a problem in my Rock Island with the second round feeding with the mag topped off and one in the chamber, but I'm no expertLOL
I DO know for awhile I was loading the same 9 rounds of hollowpoint into the magazine when I was loading the gun for home defense after a range trip. I started to see some of of the bullets getting pushed back into the case, little by little. Wasn't sure if that would be bad over the long run so I fired those off quick at my next range outing.
Again, I'm no expert, just my experiences.
M
I always top off my magazine. Never had a problem in my Rock Island with the second round feeding with the mag topped off and one in the chamber, but I'm no expertLOL
I DO know for awhile I was loading the same 9 rounds of hollowpoint into the magazine when I was loading the gun for home defense after a range trip. I started to see some of of the bullets getting pushed back into the case, little by little. Wasn't sure if that would be bad over the long run so I fired those off quick at my next range outing.
Again, I'm no expert, just my experiences.
M
possum
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kimber is watching their butts legally that is what that is all about.
you wil be fine, imho that is the only way to carry a 1911, people have been doing it for years, and that is the standard.
you wil be fine, imho that is the only way to carry a 1911, people have been doing it for years, and that is the standard.
Beagle-zebub
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Couldn't the plunger-tube pin come partially unstaked, allowing the safety to be tripped off with less-than-usual effort. Those things come unstaked a lot, don't they?
unisonic12
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Calhoun321 said:
Uh, ever hear of the Schwartz safety? My Kimber has a firing pin block very similar to what my Glocks and Kahrs have. A "lifting pin" pushes the spring loaded firing pin plunger up and out of the way when firing. Except my Kimber disengages the firing pin safety when the grip safety is squeezed, unlike Glocks and Kahrs which use the trigger pull to disengage the safety. NO WAY in the world is my Kimber going to discharge if dropped.
As far as Kimber saying you shouldn't carry it cocked and locked. Lots of gun manufacturers say it shouldn't even be loaded until you are actually ready to shoot. Well, I carry every day with a round chambered with no intention of actually shooting. Never had a problem, either, with various carry guns.
Calhoun321
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Yes, series 2 kimbers have a FP safety.
Damage to the sear face or the sear engagements hooks can result in a hammer drop. Ever heard of hammer follow? Ever herd of the 1911 going full auto? Same problem, different symptom.
Damage to the sear face or the sear engagements hooks can result in a hammer drop. Ever heard of hammer follow? Ever herd of the 1911 going full auto? Same problem, different symptom.
unisonic12
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Calhoun, I was just commenting on your blanket statement that 1911s are not safe to carry locked and cocked, which is NOT true. Even if the hammer slipped off the sear on my Kimber, there's always the half cocked position that would catch it. Remember that? Even it did fall all the way and contacted the hammer, it still wouldn't fire because the grip safety would NOT be depressed. As far as hammer follow, that's a completely different type of malfunction that could happen when actually shooting, but not when carrying. However, since my Kimber has a firing pin block safety, if I caught it in time, I could stop the "full auto" malfunction by loosening my grip and releasing the grip safety so the firing pin safety would re-engage. But, anyway, my Kimber would NEVER go "full auto" if dropped muzzle down because the first round would never fire because the firing pin can't even extend past the breech face due to the firing pin block safety.
exflatlander
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I understand these extra safety features have their place, but in my opinion (and that's all this is) if you need mechanics beyond than standard 1911 safeties than you shouldn't be carrying a single action with a chambered round.
The biggest safety is still between your ears. I can't remember ever dropping a loaded gun. If you can't keep it under control than you shouldn't be carrying it.
If your job entails physical movement of some type where a gun could come un-holstered than you need a better holster, preferrably with a thumbstrap.
The biggest safety is still between your ears. I can't remember ever dropping a loaded gun. If you can't keep it under control than you shouldn't be carrying it.
If your job entails physical movement of some type where a gun could come un-holstered than you need a better holster, preferrably with a thumbstrap.
tipoc
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Calhoun321s statement that 1911s are not safe seems to fall under the category that any gun that is broken or has a mechanical fault can be unsafe. If a 1911 is somehow defective it can be as unsafe as any other type gun with worn or defective parts. No more so, no less so.
The purpose of the Colt series 80 firing pin safety and of Kimber's version of the old Colt Schwartz safety are to make a safe gun even safer. These safeties were specifically designed to prevent a 1911 with the hammer down on a live round that was dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a concrete floor from discharging. In it's original form a 1911 dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a concrete or steel deck could discharge if the weight of the firing pin overcame the resistance of the firing pin spring and caused the pin to strike the primer with enough force to set off the round. This could happen and did in tests. So the extra parts were added to make a safe gun even safer. An extra strength firing pin spring from Wolffs also does the same thing.
1911's are safe to carry cocked and locked. In the odd event that you drop your gun while you have the hammer down on a live round from 10 feet up and it lands just right and you don't have an extra strength firing pin spring in it, it may discharge. So try to avoid that.
tipoc
The purpose of the Colt series 80 firing pin safety and of Kimber's version of the old Colt Schwartz safety are to make a safe gun even safer. These safeties were specifically designed to prevent a 1911 with the hammer down on a live round that was dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a concrete floor from discharging. In it's original form a 1911 dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a concrete or steel deck could discharge if the weight of the firing pin overcame the resistance of the firing pin spring and caused the pin to strike the primer with enough force to set off the round. This could happen and did in tests. So the extra parts were added to make a safe gun even safer. An extra strength firing pin spring from Wolffs also does the same thing.
1911's are safe to carry cocked and locked. In the odd event that you drop your gun while you have the hammer down on a live round from 10 feet up and it lands just right and you don't have an extra strength firing pin spring in it, it may discharge. So try to avoid that.
tipoc
Calhoun321
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The grip safety ONLY prevents trigger movement. If the hammer is moving (without the trigger having been pulled) the grip safety will do nothing to prevent an AD. The half cock on the series 70 is a good safety feature when combined with a good FP spring. It will prevent 95% of ADs. The recommended interval for FP spring change is 3000 rounds IIRC (just like recoil springs). How many people change them????? Weakend FP springs in a series 70 gun are trouble waiting to happen. How many people inspect their sears and hooks or even know how?
Again, my views are from doing a little study and smithing on a 1911 and from discussing this specific issue with one of the top 10 (or higher) 1911 smiths. I will not give a name (simple respect), but he is still in business and would be recognized by everyone who knows 1911s.
The 1911 is a GREAT gun, but it is appropriate for far fewer people than are carrying it IMHO.
Again, my views are from doing a little study and smithing on a 1911 and from discussing this specific issue with one of the top 10 (or higher) 1911 smiths. I will not give a name (simple respect), but he is still in business and would be recognized by everyone who knows 1911s.
The 1911 is a GREAT gun, but it is appropriate for far fewer people than are carrying it IMHO.
mpmarty
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Wow! Anyone care to compare the necessary chain of events to cause an AD in a 1911 with ... Glocks? And Glocks are absolutely safe cause the police all carry them. Sorry for the sarcasm but in my humble opinion, the 1911 C&L is the safest way to carry a serious self defense weapon. Anything "safer" is just not as good at its intended purpose, that of delivering large effective bullets quickly with decent accuracy while being narrow enough to carry comfortably.
gc70
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How safe are 1911's to carry cocked and LOCKED
Nope, I have never heard of hammer follow or going full auto with the thumb safety engaged.
For a 1911 to fire with the thumb safety engaged, either: the entire nose or both feet of the sear would have to break off, or; both the full-cock and the half-cock-notch (pre-80) or follow-through stop ledge (series 80) would have to break. Those are not breakages that occur spontaneously while a 1911 is being carried cocked and locked and would be exceeding rare if a 1911 was bashed directly on the hammer.
Nope, I have never heard of hammer follow or going full auto with the thumb safety engaged.
For a 1911 to fire with the thumb safety engaged, either: the entire nose or both feet of the sear would have to break off, or; both the full-cock and the half-cock-notch (pre-80) or follow-through stop ledge (series 80) would have to break. Those are not breakages that occur spontaneously while a 1911 is being carried cocked and locked and would be exceeding rare if a 1911 was bashed directly on the hammer.
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gc70
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gc70
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pith43
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Got a good giggle out of that.
Just for fun I did a couple of Google searches:
1) 1911 accidental discharge: Got mostly gun forums debating the possibilities of a 1911 discharge.
2) Glock accidental discharge: Got mostly news stories on...Glock accidental discharges.
geronimo509
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+1
I feel more comfortable with a 1911C&L that a glock or xd (without new thumb safety) with a round chambered.
I feel more comfortable with a 1911C&L that a glock or xd (without new thumb safety) with a round chambered.
Beagle-zebub
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Well, to be fair, the Glock is issued to police (who are mostly not gun guys) far, far more often, while the 1911 is mostly just the choice of people savvy enough to know all the idiosyncrasies of the design--I think this is a case of pretty significant selection-bias. A Glock-like design with some sort of manual safety, like in certain XD45s, would be ideal, I think.
What do you 1911 guys have to say with regard to pre-series 70 designs? Without the firing-pin block or the half-cock notch, it sounds like it would be a relatively bad choice for carry. Granted, it would still be fine 99.9% of the time, but that one in a thousand can really ruin your day.
Guillermo
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This is all rather interesting. While it is possible to make a 1911 fire if you were to "power dribble" it in reality, it is unlikely. Impossible? No. On the other hand practicality happens.
I used to carry a Combat Commander and always carried it cocked and locked. I have never had an unintended discharge and I handle a loaded gun virtually every day.
Of course I always use a holster and don't put my finger into the trigger guard until I am ready to shoot. If you follow those rules you could carry your 1911 cocked and UNLOCKED.
I used to carry a Combat Commander and always carried it cocked and locked. I have never had an unintended discharge and I handle a loaded gun virtually every day.
Of course I always use a holster and don't put my finger into the trigger guard until I am ready to shoot. If you follow those rules you could carry your 1911 cocked and UNLOCKED.
Calhoun321
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GC, I have never heard of a 1911 going full auto or having hammer follow while the safety is engaged. I have, however, heard of them firing when the thumb safety is disengaged due to damage to the lockwork.
gc70
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Certainly, Calhoun321. There are several ways a 1911 can go full auto or have hammer follow, but those things would occur when the safety was disengaged and when chambering a round or firing the gun.
The OP's question was "How safe are 1911's to carry cocked and locked?" If you can successfully chamber a round and engage the thumb safety, a 1911 is pretty darned safe to carry in cocked and locked mode. Dropping a 1911 without a firing pin safety on the muzzle or hammer, particularly when the thumb safety is not engaged, is another matter.
CDH
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My stainless Commander is always carried Cocked and Locked, specifically because it's the safest way to carry a 1911 and still have it ready for immediate action.
I've read several good articles on the subject, but this is my favorite:
http://smartcarry.com/cocklock.htm
I've read several good articles on the subject, but this is my favorite:
http://smartcarry.com/cocklock.htm
Calhoun321
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GC, we're probably in pretty close agreement overall.
I have heard of a sear shattering (I don't recall the circumstances). Perhaps it was made with MIM. If that occured during the drop of a series 70 gun, it would be very prone to firing.
I know tests have shown a muzzle drop onto a hard surface from around 10 feet is necessary for a AD. I'm not overly concerned about such a discharge. However, I have done a little informal drop testing with a 1911. In doing so I found that a loaded 1911 will be much more likely to impact on the hammer than the muzzle, hence my concern over the necessity of the lockwork being in perfect working order for it to be safe. Again, I fear that most 1911 shooters do not have the technical knowledge to know if their gun is in "perfect working order".
I have heard of a sear shattering (I don't recall the circumstances). Perhaps it was made with MIM. If that occured during the drop of a series 70 gun, it would be very prone to firing.
I know tests have shown a muzzle drop onto a hard surface from around 10 feet is necessary for a AD. I'm not overly concerned about such a discharge. However, I have done a little informal drop testing with a 1911. In doing so I found that a loaded 1911 will be much more likely to impact on the hammer than the muzzle, hence my concern over the necessity of the lockwork being in perfect working order for it to be safe. Again, I fear that most 1911 shooters do not have the technical knowledge to know if their gun is in "perfect working order".
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