How silly would a CX4-storm be for self defense?

[MachIVshooter]

People are going to say that if you're going to get a rifle then get a rifle. Honestly, I don't think you can call self defense shooting at someone 200 yards away...

The logic behind using a rifle caliber for HD is not the extended range. The point here is that if you're going to use a long gun, it might as well be in a rifle caliber because they are far more effective. 9mm typically gains 100-200 FPS from a 16" tube vs. a 5" tube. Not a whole lot of imrovement for the extra size/weight. The 5.56mm is a more more devastating round and can be had in weapons smaller and lighter than a Cx4.

Downside to using rifle cartridges for HD is noise. Touch off a 16" .223 indoors W/O ear protection and you'll likely suffer permanent hearing damage.

 

[Spencer]

Well isn't a 9mm pistol a respectable self defense weapon? How can improving on that be a bad thing?

9mm is bad when compared to .357 mag or .40 S&W (even though I don't like 40 S&W). The only upside is the compactness of the round which makes for more concealable weapons, and with a carbine that's gone. You'd be packing alot more heat with a rifle that is chambered for an actual rifle caliber.

.223 Remington vs 9mm Luger

3200 ft/sec velocity vs 1300 ft/sec velocity
1200 ft/lbs energy vs 400 ft/lbs energy
RIFLE SIZE- Same

People are going to say that if you're going to get a rifle then get a rifle. Honestly, I don't think you can call self defense shooting at someone 200 yards away...

I stated, above, the approximate muzzle velocities and energies on a .223 and 9mm. Now you decide which one would hurt more at 5 feet from the muzzle.

 

[Mr. Ouchie]

ft/lbs isn't everything. For home defense over-penetration is an issue. Of course bullet choice will have to come into consideration, I keep mine loaded with gold dots. You can go with +P ammo in the CX4 as well.

You can get CX4's in multiple calibers btw, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The unfortunate thing about the .45 ACP version is that Beretta only has 8-round magazines for it, but that's supposed to change in the future.

 

[Spencer]

ft/lbs isn't everything. For home defense over-penetration is an issue. Of course bullet choice will have to come into consideration, I keep mine loaded with gold dots. You can go with +P ammo in the CX4 as well.

You can get CX4's in multiple calibers btw, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The unfortunate thing about the .45 ACP version is that Beretta only has 8-round magazines for it, but that's supposed to change in the future.

So you're saying stopping power doesn't really matter? Hell then, we could use .22 LR for all our home defense needs.

No matter how you try to rationalize it, a rifle chambered in a rifle caliber is just better than one chambered in a pistol caliber.

The only real reason I can see of having a pistol caliber carbine is for plinking or just to have something different, a novelty.

The only place 9mm has real authority is in submachine guns.

 

[Doug S]

No offense, but I think that anyone who flatly denies the viability of a hi-capacity 9mm carbine as a HD firearm, is just cuckoo. No one asked if it was the perfect firearm for home defense, they only asked if it was a suitable alternative within it’s limitations. It is. I sure wouldn’t want to go up against a well trained individual armed with a Sub 2000 and a 33 round magazine filled with hollow points (within normal house defense ranges). The gun is maneuverable, has little recoil, and is capable of a high rate of accurate firepower. Not many deny that with modern defensive loads, that the 9mm is a decent stopper. It has sufficient stopping power for its intended purpose. I’m sure the same could be said for the CX4 as a home defense carbine. We could nitpick all day long, but that wouldn’t change the fact that, although not perfect, a handy pistol caliber carbine is a viable defensive firearm within the limitations of it's cartridge.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

The storms were designed for HD.

 

[Mr. Ouchie]

ft/lbs != stopping power. If that energy isn't dumped into the target then it's just wasted. Again, it's all going to depend on your choice of ammo, barrel length/velocity for .233 fragmentation, house construction and layout dictating whether or not you have worry about over-penetration taking out your kids or neighbors, etc. You could use an AK and perforate your intruder as well as the intruders on the next block, but that might not go over too well with your neighbors. http://thehighroad.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

 

[cslinger]

Well this is actually going much better then then I expected.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Pistol caliber carbines are one of those indeterminate, in between kinda things.


You get a slight power boost, with the right ammo, and, of course, a longarm is easier to wield over longer ranges than a handgun, the chance of getting those life saving hits increases, and A semi auto PCC tends to be a (lot!) lighter than a semi auto full up rifle, usually weighing in around 5 pounds.

They have their place.

I recommend them for housedefense to n00bs and occassional shooters who can not/will not commit to the minimum amount of training and range time to _master_ a handgun, in preference to handguns or shotguns.

I also happen to keep on in my trunk, as it the only one of my many arms that is lawful in all the various jurisdictions I travel in.

Honestly, though, I'd rather have a rifle in said trunk.

In a katrina/shtf sorta situation, the PCC becomes one of the "arm the neighbor" weapons.

 

[MachIVshooter]

ft/lbs isn't everything. For home defense over-penetration is an issue. Of course bullet choice will have to come into consideration, I keep mine loaded with gold dots. You can go with +P ammo in the CX4 as well.

5.56mm has proven time and time again to be less likely to exit a domestic structure than standard handgun rounds.

And you're right-ft/lbs aren't everything. Trauma is, and the 5.56mm causes a whole lot more of it than any normal handgun cartridge.

 

[Saiga39]

I just wanted to throw out there that the nut job in Montreal who killed one person and wounded 19 others at a college a few weeks ago, used a Storm.

 

[Eightball]

The search function is a wonderful feature......

I'd say buy it. It's somewhere on my list, closer to the bottom, mainly as a "fun gun". That's the only reason you need.

 

[Mr. Ouchie]

Yeah, that's why you don't use standard handgun rounds for home defense. You use hollow points or their ilk.

From my understanding you only get a lot of trauma from .223 if the velocity is up there enough to cause fragmentation, shorter barreled weapons might not let them get up to speed, and full-sized weapons can be unwieldy in close quarters.

No one is going to count on a one-shot stop, so the ability to get off a number of shots with good control is important. Of course, most of all that means training with your weapon of choice. Whatever works for you.

 

[beerslurpy]

Tell that too all the people that have died after being shot with pistol rounds...

Way more people die of knife and strangulation but no one brings those to a gunfight. Rifle is just plain superior if you dont have to conceal.

 

[mr.trooper]

It's a marginal self defense weapon. The only benefit of a 9mm pistol is that it is small enough to conceal or to hang on a belt holster without discomfort.

And the 45acp is Gods gift to the faithfull I suppose.

Rifles are terrible defencive weapons; especialy for those of us in the suburbs. Ill take a quality hollowpoint from a handgun over a varmint bullet from a rifle.

 

[marksman13]

why not...longer barrel gives better ballistics than a handgun. Has the point and shoot capability of a rifle without the overpenetration...sounds like a winner to me...but would get in a .40 cal if possible...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I don't think there is any question it is passable for self-defense use. Obviously, it isn't the optimum choice and pistol-caliber carbines would be at the bottom of any list of long guns I was going to use for that role; but it can certainly do the job and has some advantages over a pistol.

As for rifles for home defense, there are a lot of myths being repeated in this thread that have been covered in depth in the tacked "Reading Library" thread.

From my understanding you only get a lot of trauma from .223 if the velocity is up there enough to cause fragmentation

The shortest barrel you can own without doing the NFA paperwork is the 16" barrel, which will keep military FMJ above the fragmentation threshhold velocities out to 100yds easily. You are also not bound by the Geneva Convention so you have the additional option of selecting ammunition that is more effective to begin with.

Rifles are terrible defencive weapons; especialy for those of us in the suburbs. Ill take a quality hollowpoint from a handgun over a varmint bullet from a rifle.

9mm hollowpoints almost always penetrate intermediate barriers and ballistic gel better than a .223. The library threads have several comparisons in ballistic gel after intermediate barriers. In both surburbs and urban settings, most law enforcement have dropped 9mm subguns in favor of .223 carbines.

However, just because an intermediate caliber centerfire rifle may be better, it doesn't mean that a CX4 Storm shoots nerf bullets or is incapable of home defense. It can certainly do the job if you can.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Why wouldn't it? People are going to say that if you're going to get a rifle then get a rifle. Honestly, I don't think you can call self defense shooting at someone 200 yards away...

Really? So what you are saying is that if somebody is 200 yards away and shooting at you that you can't return fire because that would not be self defnese? That seems naive. There are several questions to resolve the self defense issue that might be asked. Did the opposition of have the intent, opportunity, and ability to hurt you from 200 yards? Were you in fear for your life?

-------------------------------------

I have a Storm. Given the size and if you have a choice, going with a rifle caliber for defense would be a much better option. It is a great plinker and a lot of fun, but not a first choice for defense and not a good choice if you have the option to buy something else.

As for the 200 yard defense, you definitely can hit human-sized silhouette targets at that range, but environmental conditions seem to really start reeking havoc with ballistics and accuracy at that range and by 300 the Storm seems better as an 'area' shooter. Out to 100, it is an easy gun to shoot well, however.

Of course you could go crazy with an ACOG, light, vertical grip, and 100 rounds on board...

 

[strambo]

Seems like some folks need to look into the mechanism of wounding for pistols more. FT/lbs of energy pretty much is irrelevant in and of itself. It is only usefull as a potential indicator of the ability of a pistol bullet to achieve what is relevant.

The only relevant thing (for pistols) is how big the permanent wound cavity is (how much tissue is destroyed). This is based on depth (penetration) and diameter. So, a 125 gr .357 magnum bullet that penetrates 13" in ballistic gel and expands to .60" has the exact same real-world wounding potential as a 124 gr 9mm projectile from a carbine that penetrates 13" and expands to .60".

So, the .40 and .45s are "better" than the 9mm because they can penetrate deeper and/or expand larger creating a bigger permanent cavity. The .380 is worse than the 9mm because the slower velocity does not give you the same penetration and expansion as the 9mm. 357 Sig (gonna get flamed) isn't really better than the best 9mm +P loadings because they both penetrate about 12-13" and expand to .55-.62" or so. The 9mm bullet can't really expand anymore than this and though the designers could achieve more penetration in the 357 Sig (extra ft/lbs to work with), they don't because it is considered overpenetration for defensive rounds.

In rifles the velocities are much, much higher. This creates a temporary wound cavity that ruptures organs and destroys tissue. Damage is above and out of proportion to just the permanent wound cavity.

As far as "dumping energy" into a target having an effect in stopping an aggressor...Newton says 100% of the same level of energy is "dumped" into your hand when you shoot...doesn't stop you any. It's that energy, propelling an object with a small surface area that can penetrate a human body and damage tissue that matters. For pistols, the energy is just to achieve penetration. .44 magnum and above might start to get rifle type effects, but I don't know at what velocity this starts to occur other than somewhere north of 1400 fps or so. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I (not hard to find) can chime in?

 

[s23246g]

Had to sign up to add my 2 cents

First of all, forgive me if this doesn't flow well, as I have been awake for about 30 hrs at this point. I promise to be more articulate in the future.
I am a former Police Officer, who served many years on a Drug Task Force in a rural county in Kansas. We did many many raids on drug labs, homes, mobile labs in fields, etc, and I wish to hell I had had my Storm back then. (The irony is I couldn't afford it on a cop's salary). Since I am highly trained with my Beretta 9mm 92fs (I scored 100% on the practical course at the academy in case you're wondering), I chose the 9mm Storm so the mags would interchange. I have set up my Storm as a home defense weapon, adding a red dot sight, a light, and upgrading to 15 and 20 round magazines. I would challenge anyone to tell me that I chose poorly.
I keep the 92fs and the storm loaded with Black Talon/Ranger SXT, and I am confident that they would stop any intruder from continuing any naughtyness he had in mind while he was finding his way into my home. As someone mentioned, shot placement is key. Someone also made an argument against the Storm, and in favor of the MP5. Hello?! isn't the only difference semi auto vs full auto. I would not want to be launching a volley of full auto 9mm inside my home with my wife and children hiding somewhere inside.
I am able to hit a 4 inch steel plate at 100 yards consistently with my Storm.
That being said, I do live in the city, and do worry about over-penetration. BUT, I would MUCH rather shoot my Storm in my home than a .223, or any large rifle caliber. (I did carry a CAR 15 while working as a Deputy, and while it would be good for the field, or a barricade situation, I would not want to use one for CQB)
In my opinion/experience, 9mm IS an effective cartridge for home defense, otherwise I wold not have trusted my life to it for all those years. I would recommend the Storm (in whatever caliber) for home defense, but you might also want to invest in some accessories such as a top rail, red dot sight, tactical light, etc. It is a fun gun to shoot too.
My 2 cents... Keep the change.

 

[torpid]

...I'd love to pick one up, but in order to do so, I have to convince myself it'd be at least passable for self defense uses.

So how silly am I for even considering this?

Well I guess the answer lies in this question:

If you were thinking about breaking into somebody's home armed with, say a crowbar and a hunting knife for nefarious purposes, would you consider the occupants being armed a CX-4 in 9mm an irrelavent distraction, and cavalierly press on with your break in because it was only laughably useless 9mm?

If not, then I'd say it's at least passable...

 

[s&w 24]

If you like it and will shoot a stack of ammo thru it go ahead. low recoil and increased accurace over a handgun.

It's not the tool but the tool user that matters.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

9mm probably won't go through the walls into my kids room, the .223 definitly will. Why do I need a AR or AK in my house?

 

[Monkeybear]

HGUNHNTR - 9mm has been show to penetrate more reliably through walls than .223. Look into it, its a common misconception. Its also a can of worms so Ill not go further into it.

If your gonna use a pistol carbine for HD then keep in mind 9mm is cheaper than just about anything you put in a rifle so you better use that to your advantage. Practice. Practice. Practice.

 

[Jerry Morris]

A handgun is what you use for defense, when you should have had a rifle, or shotgun. A pistol cartridge in a rifle is a major compromise, to be used only when absolutely necessary.

That said, I do have handguns. But, if I know there is going to be lethal shooting, I am looking for that rifle. The handgun is merely a back up for that scary nightmare situation, where the rifle is no longer working, or one of my arms is not working very well, either.

Nothing in life is guaranteed, except that it will eventually end. Everything can fail. Look at Clyde's brother Buck Barrow.

Jerry