How Things Really Unfold in the Gravest Extreme

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Kleanbore

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This is for people who are not police officers.

I have a number of friends who have been sworn officers of the law. Our members know some of them, too.

Personally, I have little interest on fiction about police action. I am, however, interested in the detective angle.

Foyle's War, with Michael Kitchen starring as Detective Chief Superintendent Christopher Foyle, and Midsomer Murders, with John Nettles in the role of Detective Chief Inspector Tom Barnaby, would always put me in front of the television. In books, I've liked almost every one of Georges Simenon's stories of Paris police inspector Jules Maigret.

I leave the T. J. Hooker stuff to others.

However, there are a few unalterable realities about actual police work on the street that people should understand before they form opinions on current events, and before they inadvertently and unexpectedly step into harms way.
_________________________

"He was shot in the back. It was murder."

"I saw it, marshal. The sod-buster drew first. It was self defense."

We've heard those statements, and others like them, on old television episodes of Bonanza, Cheyenne, Gunsmoke, Laramie, The Lawman, Maverick, The Virginian, and elsewhere, woven into plots of all kinds. Some people may have taken them to heart as legal reality.

But they are wrong--very wrong. They are as far off base as the ridiculous notion that two men would ever have walked out into the streets of Dodge or Tombstone at high noon, walked toward each other, stopped, held their hands above their guns, and......

Yet, many people have come to accept such ideas, and to expect such things in fiction.

It surely colors their reaction when they hear repeated news soundbites such as...

"The officers shot an unarmed..."

"The officers shot the suspect in the back."

Those incidents are certainly tragic, regardless of the character and record of the decedent. And to the uninformed, those comments sound just terrible...

....that is, until we understand something about the realities of the dynamics of a real police encounter.

Why? Speed. Reaction time. The fact that decisions have to be made before all the facts can be known.

Motion pictures are worth many words. See the video.

Remember it the next time you see some earnest looking reader of scripts mouthing an account of a tragic incident.

And at the same time, forget what you have seen on those entertaining old western shows.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYSsCaUFexw&feature=emb_imp_woyt

For the civilian, there are, I think, at least three important things to learn from it:

First, what actually happened in a police-involved shooting cannot be reasonably evaluated by those who were not there, by those who do not know the subject, and/or using the "ways of the (TV) West".

Second. if you are involved in any kind of encounter with police officers (traffic stop, reporting a prowler, etc.), keep your hands visible, and it you have to reach for your reading glasses, your meds, your phone, or whatever, don't do it until and unless you have told the officer, and have received received permission and clear instruction.

Third, remember the lessons is in the video whenever you are involved in a discussion after a fender-bender, or anything else that may not feel right. The person who appears to be walking away may still have a joker up his sleeve.
 
Have to totally agree, excellent video. Most who read the "media" have no clue what it's like for LEO's. Sadly even many gun owners seem to love to hate on Cops. Sure some rare times someone with a badge should not have the job. If you get into some kind of confrontation with and LEO the side of the road is NOT the place to deal with it. If someone is stopped, simple. Do what the LEO tells you to do. If you feel you were wronged? That is what court is for. It's never going to make it better to be an asshat at the car. I have not been pulled over in decades since I don't drive in a way to get it. Last coupe interactions were breakdowns. I was waiting for AAA. When LEO approached I already had wallet and papers out since I was waiting. Both times these were waved off. I am sure they had already run my tags. If stopped? I would keep my hands where they can be seen and follow what I was told. If out of my vehicle there is no way in hell I would reach into it unless LEO was standing there with me saying for me to do so. It is amazing how many people brag about throwing their weight around at a stop. Why? What is to be gained here? The one BIG downside to all this "we hate all cops" thing is what we are going to end up with. No one who would make a good Cop is going to want to take the damn job now. So what we will end up with is a lot of people who NEVER should have gotten the job, in the job. People think it's bad now? Wait till another decade or two pass and there is a lot of idiots with a badge who got hired because no one else would take the job.
 
GREAT POST.

FACT IS ,police work actually does give you "spidy sense".

And the FACT that in the act of pulling a trigger,you CANNOT UNDO that action.

Action is MUCH faster than reaction ---- learn what that means in a practical sense and you will know much Luke !.

FACT = there is no one who understands police work ,who has not actually done it.

Many will argue that ------ FACT, they were never cops !.

Fact --- until you have been shot at,you have NO IDEA what you will do or HOW IT FEELS.

That has nothing to do with actually being shot,that is another ball game.
 
When I went thru the academy back in 99, we spent a whole lot of time on drawing our service weapon from our duty rig. We were taught that to get to where i'ts second nature we'd need to make at least 500 perfect draws. Well like most, I didn't really take that to heart . Then the first night I'm sworn as a town officer we get into a pursuit where the driver of the stopped vehicle jumps out and charges my partner who's driving. Don't ever remember drawing and aiming and yelling what the driver said my partner (who was still getting out of the cruiser when she came to a screaching halt like the road runner) yelled at her. Training pays and practice has to be a constant job so your skill level doesn't drop off.

Maas Ayoob writes a good series of books on self defense with a fire arm
 
The actual results of any armed encounter are so random and unpredictable that they should be avoided at all costs - if possible. That was my experience on the street over the years. At times it comes down to pure instinct in the moment (this from a guy who only fired one shot on duty in 22 years).

I'll cite a single incident where I didn't shoot - but it could have gone either way... This was back in the days when everyone on my small hundred man department still carried service revolvers (mine was the S& W model 10, heavy barrel - I still have it all these years later...). At any rate I was on my own and much closer to a call of an ex-boyfriend harassing than my officers and as I drove into the area I saw a car driving away from the scene with a single male occupant. Nice quiet Sunday morning... and he quickly stopped for me and remained in his car with the window down. I approached, verified this was the problem, relaxing a bit since he was calm and appeared co-operative. When I asked if the car was his he replied that it was and reached for the glove box with me watching very closely. As the door to the box flopped open I could see a .45 auto with the hammer cocked in plain sight. I don't even remember drawing my weapon and actually had it in his ear (we were that close to each other)... He picked up the weapon and simply tossed it over his shoulder into the back seat.... and I did my best not to show how spooked I was... To this day I marvel that I didn't kill the guy (and after the fact actually found a bit of ear wax on the end of my sidearm...). This by the way was during the height of the cocaine cowboys era when things were pretty crazy on the street most days. The driver subsequently apologized for reaching for that glove box - and the registration was in fact in it.. A serial number check revealed the pistol was not reported stolen and a records check of the individual didn't show anything heavy at all. When my officers verified that no crime had been committed at his ex-girlfriend's town house, that was the end of the encounter and he was allowed to depart - with his handgun...

Looking back on it, the guy with the gun was entirely too calm about having a gun pulled on him at really close quarters and I'll always wonder exactly who I was dealing with that day.. but all's well that ends without a problem (serious understatement). Very, very glad I'm long out of that world. In my era (1973 to 1995) there were three cops a year, every year, killed on the job combining Dade (Miami) and Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) counties since without a boundary map it all looked like one big city... After a few years on the street I quit going to them since funerals are for the living....
 
Many people who become LEO's get VERY good at it. Long ago I worked at a refrigerated warehouse. On Sunday I would open up early, get ready for receiving product all day. It was in an industrial part of town that at night was full of scum. All of us who worked nights carried. I went in, put on coffee, forgot to call in an OK for the alarm so it went out as a silent. I walk back to my car, it's in the 90's outside. I grab a snow suite and have that over one arm and in my other hand is a 1911. As I close the door I hear from behind me "you work here?". It's a Cop. I said yes, he says you have an alarm going off? I said damn I forgot to call. We walk in, I call the alarm Co, give the code, hand phone to Cop. He laughs and leaves. I was SHOCKED he said not a word about the gun in my hand. He looked like he had been doing the job for a good while so I have to guess with that, the time it was, the body language from me, easy to see I was going to work, not holding some place up, that he was so easy going.
All the years I worked there that was the only time I spaced on the alarm. I was told that if you forgot to call them late at night when opening up they responded with a lot more force :rofl:
 
The actual results of any armed encounter are so random and unpredictable that they should be avoided at all costs - if possible. That was my experience on the street over the years. At times it comes down to pure instinct in the moment (this from a guy who only fired one shot on duty in 22 years).

I'll cite a single incident where I didn't shoot - but it could have gone either way... This was back in the days when everyone on my small hundred man department still carried service revolvers (mine was the S& W model 10, heavy barrel - I still have it all these years later...). At any rate I was on my own and much closer to a call of an ex-boyfriend harassing than my officers and as I drove into the area I saw a car driving away from the scene with a single male occupant. Nice quiet Sunday morning... and he quickly stopped for me and remained in his car with the window down. I approached, verified this was the problem, relaxing a bit since he was calm and appeared co-operative. When I asked if the car was his he replied that it was and reached for the glove box with me watching very closely. As the door to the box flopped open I could see a .45 auto with the hammer cocked in plain sight. I don't even remember drawing my weapon and actually had it in his ear (we were that close to each other)... He picked up the weapon and simply tossed it over his shoulder into the back seat.... and I did my best not to show how spooked I was... To this day I marvel that I didn't kill the guy (and after the fact actually found a bit of ear wax on the end of my sidearm...). This by the way was during the height of the cocaine cowboys era when things were pretty crazy on the street most days. The driver subsequently apologized for reaching for that glove box - and the registration was in fact in it.. A serial number check revealed the pistol was not reported stolen and a records check of the individual didn't show anything heavy at all. When my officers verified that no crime had been committed at his ex-girlfriend's town house, that was the end of the encounter and he was allowed to depart - with his handgun...

Looking back on it, the guy with the gun was entirely too calm about having a gun pulled on him at really close quarters and I'll always wonder exactly who I was dealing with that day.. but all's well that ends without a problem (serious understatement). Very, very glad I'm long out of that world. In my era (1973 to 1995) there were three cops a year, every year, killed on the job combining Dade (Miami) and Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) counties since without a boundary map it all looked like one big city... After a few years on the street I quit going to them since funerals are for the living....

I too have a great "did not shoot" story.
Short version,car stop for drinking in vehicle,back seat kid is a BIG native American with jacket on his lap.
Told him to move that jacket so I could see his beer.
He moved the jacket to reveal a sawed off 12 gauge pump.
I actually dove over the door to land outside of his range,drew my newer 9MM S&W,as my backup put his .38 S&W model 10 in the kids ear.
All went real peaceful after that,but I still recall EVERY SECOND of that encounter.
Sadly the judge dropped the charges against that gun holder,he went and shot a kid to death a few months later !.
 
I too have a great "did not shoot" story.
Short version,car stop for drinking in vehicle,back seat kid is a BIG native American with jacket on his lap.
Told him to move that jacket so I could see his beer.
He moved the jacket to reveal a sawed off 12 gauge pump.
I actually dove over the door to land outside of his range,drew my newer 9MM S&W,as my backup put his .38 S&W model 10 in the kids ear.
All went real peaceful after that,but I still recall EVERY SECOND of that encounter.
Sadly the judge dropped the charges against that gun holder,he went and shot a kid to death a few months later !.

WOW!
That reminds me of an article a retired Cop wrote long ago. Theme was something like all rookies have guardian angles following them. He told some tales of the stupid stuff he and some other rookies had done while learning. The one yours reminded me was he pulls a guy over. He knew he was hiding some kind of contraband under the dash. So he walks up, says I know what you have under the dash so why don't you let me have it. Guy reaches under and comes out with gun. Guy said he overcame the shock fast enough to get his gun in the guys ear and it all stopped. He never forgot that lesson though. He said he could not believe he actually told the guy to reach for something he could not see. :eek:
 
I worked with a great guy on the street all those years ago and mostly we all worked in single patrolman vehicles, rarely in two man units. The guy had a street reputation as outstandingly lucky on the street - as well as being something of a joker whenever it was least appropriate. He loved to joke with street people and could be known to run cons on just about anyone... Here's just a few examples.. One night, late late at night... he stopped in a back alley to relieve himself (midnight shift, very few places with toilets to be found anywhere....). While taking care of business he hears very clearly on the roof of the building he's behind, two guys talking about how to get the vent on the roof off so they could gain entry... Yep, a commercial burglary going down just two stories directly above him.... and he was able (after retreating quietly) to call in the world and we took them down, in the act...

On another occasion, after a traffic stop before walking up to the car in a loud voice he said, "All right throw out your guns"... you guessed it, two guns come sailing out of the car - on an ordinary traffic stop with nothing to indicate the slightest problem... He said later that he was just joking to liven up a boring night... and never expected the result...

On one of the few occasions I was doubled up with him (shift change and I'd be taking over his car in a hour or so after he went home at the end of his shift... Our first job that night was to transport a prisoner to a holding facility for a misdemeanor... As we put him in the car a robbery call of a convenience store just a few blocks away went down - and he told the prisoner " come on let's go to a robbery" . The guy in handcuffs said he didn't want to go - but he wasn't getting any say that night. All we did was scout the area and make a traffic stop or two in hopes of finding the robber but no luck so we then drove to the lock-up and as always secured our sidearms in the car before we stepped out (in that era it was okay - when I retired out that would have not been allowed under any circumstances...). We opened the back door of the patrol car, removed the prisoner, still in handcuffs and walked him to the sally port and he noted that neither of us were armed since all we had were empty holsters... He stopped short and said - "you guys were looking for an armed robber without guns?"... It was the perfect opening -my partner without batting an eye, perfectly deadpan said that we'd gotten into a shooting the week before and the Department wouldn't give them back to us until it was all squared away... I never saw a guy so happy to get inside a jail... and just maybe my buddy Stan had another great story to tell....
 
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The video, which JohnKSa provided, is excellent, but several sessions in an interactive laser simulator with a number of different shoot/no-shoot scenarios would be very helpful.

For the civilian, it can help in two ways.

It can help prepare us for the dynamics of that encounter in the parking lot or at the service situation when someone suspicious reaches for--something.

And it can help us better understand how to avoid a fatal mistake when the officer is giving commands to us.
 
"No plan survives contact with the enemy."
LOL, I think of that every year when we go through re-certification. Spend a day practicing all the holds and take downs. Everyone who has been doing it a while laughs when it's over knowing it almost never goes like it does in the class. :D:D
 
There is a horrific training film we watched that shows what happens when an officer doesn't take action when he should.

It was the actual video recording from an officers vehicle, it showed a motorist out of his vehicle and refusing to follow the officer's directions. The motorist then reaches into his vehicle and comes out with an M-1 Carbine, if I remember correctly.

Rather then shooting, the officer keeps telling him to drop it. The officer winds up getting shot several times, fatally, as we painfully watch and listen.

Saddest film ever.
 
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I have respect for police officers and appreciate the hard decisions they sometimes must make. I support them fully. This video made me appreciate them more. Thank you to all that do this difficult job or have done it.
I have had even officers thank me while I am in my military uniform. I always thank them back for what they do.
 
Well’ I have to disagree with the training video.
While it does a very good job at showing how fast a weapon can be brought into play
you cannot shoot a man in the back because you think he may pull a gun
Or makes a movement as if he has a gun.
And yes, some people play this stupid game with cops.
Or, in my recent instances, with armed security officers.
Proper use of cover has saved many officers from shooting when it is not justified.
Ditto with not allowing a suspect to reach into a vehicle.
I realize some police bosses don’t want to hear it but car stops should not be done by solo officers.
Buts that’s another story.
 
I always remember three things about subjects like this one by OP
1. Most people are good, including cops of course. But always protect yourself.
2. Most of what I read or see regarding news is only partially true at best and an outright lie at worst.
3. There is no such thing as “Truth” in these matters, only a “better” perception.
 
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you cannot shoot a man in the back because you think he may pull a gun
What does "in the back" have to do with anything?

Or makes a movement as if he has a gun.
Do you believe that one must wait until one sees a gun before acting?

Proper use of cover has saved many officers from shooting when it is not justified.
How does an officer "use cover" when making a necessary arrest?

Ditto with not allowing a suspect to reach into a vehicle.
That's what they were trying to prevent.
 
#1 That seems to be the rationale of the video—- explaining why officers are shooting preps in the back.

#2 Acting no.
Shooting—-yes.

#3 Challenges should be made from behind cover which buys you time and the ability to fully comprehend what is going on.
It also makes a perp less likely to try to take you on.

Furthermore arrests should not be attempted by a solo officer. Which is why solo patrol cars are an invention of the bean counters.
Just IMHO



‘That's what they were trying to Prevent’
I must have missed that point since the video never brought it up.



 
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LOL, I think of that every year when we go through re-certification. Spend a day practicing all the holds and take downs. Everyone who has been doing it a while laughs when it's over knowing it almost never goes like it does in the class. :D:D

Reminds me of when they were training the juniors and seniors in ROTC on searching dead or wounded enemy; I ( a freshman, and thus 'training dummy') lay out in a prone position gripping the M16A1 as if shot in the movies, arms out. First kid lays on top of me and rolls me over to the right as he was told, with another covering me on my left. (Stupid; the whole point of rolling a body over is to check for grenade booby traps. Being on the left, he'd better run FAST!) When he got me half rolled over, I rolled onto my right elbow, swung the rifle at the stunned guy covering me, fired (dry fire), then buttstroked the guy on top of me in the ribs, pivoted up on my left knee and shoved the birdcage in his face. The Major thought it was perfect training, the kids cried "FOUL!" :rofl:
 
That seems to be the rationale of the video—- explaining why officers are shooting preps in the back.
That wouldn't be a necessary thing to explain, had people not somehow come to think that shooting someone in the back is more unlawful than shooting him in the chest or the side.

Do not confuse this with the shooing of a fleeing felon.

QUOTE="Matthew Temkin, post: 11661634, member: 4189"]#2 Yes. You must see a threat. Which is why....[/QUOTE]No! A defender who waits to see a gun or a knife will likely end up dead. That's very well established in us of force law.

Challenges should be made from behind cover which buys you time and the ability to fully comprehend what is going on.
What? That's silly.

Furthermore arrests should not be attempted by a solo officer.
Sometimes that is necessary.

Forget the law enforcement angle fo a moment. If you are faced with an imminent violent attack, you need not wait to see a gun or a knife before defending yourself. A threatening advance and behavior, hidden hands, and a furtive movement should cause you to act before it is too late.

Of course, you would not be trying to detain anyone.
 
Forget the law enforcement angle fo a moment. If you are faced with an imminent violent attack, you need not wait to see a gun or a knife before defending yourself. A threatening advance and behavior, hidden hands, and a furtive movement should cause you to act before it is too lateForget the law enforcement angle fo a moment. If you are faced with an imminent violent attack, you need not wait to see a gun or a knife before defending yourself. A threatening advance and behavior, hidden hands, and a furtive movement should cause you to act before it is too late.


I see your point.
Wait too long and die.
But shoot too soon and you may, depending upon the State, spend the rest of your life behind bars.
Or at least seeing that person’s ghost until the day you die.
Then again, ACTING does not always involve SHOOTING.
I have been in many of these situations and never had to shoot anybody.
I have disarmed two gunmen and 3 knife attackers in my career using various tactics.
I have also bummed rushed and tackled and/or thrown more bad guys than I can recall.


“That’s silly”
Please explain why it is silly to make a challenge from behind cover.
Especially since this is pretty much standard officer survival protocol.






That wouldn't be a necessary thing to explain, had people not somehow come to think that shooting someone in the back is more unlawful than shooting him in the chest or the side.

Shooting an unarmed person because you thought that they might have been a threat will take A LOT of explaining.
Probably before 12 of your peers.
Hope you have lots of money to mount that kind of defense.

Lastly it may be necessary to make a solo arrest but it is not wise because the officer has to get inside the bad guys reactionary zone to handcuff him.
Two man patrols solve this situation.
We were taught never to handcuff a subject if we were alone but I guess you got to do what you deem appropriate.



 
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Forget the law enforcement angle fo a moment. If you are faced with an imminent violent attack, you need not wait to see a gun or a knife before defending yourself. A threatening advance and behavior, hidden hands, and a furtive movement should cause you to act before it is too late.
That's what I said.
 
Yes.
I know.
I was attempting to quote you so I could give a response.
Which I eventually did.
See 2 posts above this one.
 
Please explain why it is silly to make a challenge from behind cover.
Officers making a stop do not have cover. Concealment, maybe, but today's cars are not cover.

But I did not say to not make a challenge. I said it would be silly to wait to "fully comprehend what's going on" in circumstances such as those shown in the video.

Shooting an unarmed person because you thought that they might have been a threat will take A LOT of explaining.
We are not speaking of shooting anyone because they were thought to be a threat, unless there was a basis for a reasonable belief that they were a threat.

Any use of deadly force takes a lot of explaining.

Search here on Lisa Seele, an attorney who has written about the legal defense of self defense.

Read the third link.

She explains why waiting to see a weapon is neither legally required or prudent, depending upon the circumstances. The video shows that well. LEO and civilian use of force training reflect that reality.

Lastly it may be necessary to make a solo arrest but it is not wise because the officer has to get inside the bad guys reactionary zone to handcuff him.
True.

Two man patrols solve this situation.
Too bad they are rarely possible today.

We were taught never to handcuff a subject if we were alone but I guess you got to do what you deem appropriate
Best to wait for backup, if at all possible.

But an officer who waits for backup as an uncooperative suspect ignores instructions to shoe his hands and keep them out of the vehicle may well end up with his name in black on the station wall.
 
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