How to best use a cap and ball revolver

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What in particular did you have problems with?

Let me know, maybe I can help. Rolling paper cartriges is kind of tricky at first, but once you get on to it, it goes quickly. Let me know what you are having problems with, and I will post some pics to help you out.
 
Gato & group,

I have been interested in getting into (don't tell my wife) black powder shooting since a guy at the range let me shoot his Navy Colt 44. Now, what is a good one to buy? I see them at different stores for anywhere from $150 on up, most of them have quite a bit of brass..
What brand/maker do I look for? What price range? Just a fun gun to shoot that doesn't cost a bunch....I do like the looks of the Navy Colt..
Here we go another "Hobby"....

Thanks,
Jim
 
Jim - most budget repro stuff seems to be around $150 or less - lots of suplliers out there - Sportsmans Guide, Cabellas - loads of em.

Pietta, Uberti are two brand examples. I got the Pietta Rem pattern 44 and yeah - quite a lot have brass frames. These are not therefore the toughest of guns and should be shot within safe limits - not ''stoked up'' like you might in a Ruger Old Army!

Some parts do wear quite quick (hand) - and springs can be a problem at times but for me - no worry as I shoot BP stuff very infrequently now, way less than once. So doubt I'll have too many issues. For the money spent I doubt you'll be disappointed - and maybe it'll be a stepping stone to a Ruger!

cap_ball_s.jpg
 
Hey,Jim.

There are lots of options out there in several styles and price ranges. IIWY, I'd avoid anything with a brass frame, especially in .44 caliber. They just won't hold up under even moderate use nearly as well as steel and are more-easily damaged.

There are pros and cons for all of the most popular C&B revolver styles. These would be the .36 1851 Colt "Navy", the .44 1860 Colt "Army", and the so-called "1858" Remington New Models in .36 or .44. I'd suggest that you handle a few and decide what seems to fit your hand best for a start.

The sights on almost all C&B revolvers leave a bit to be desired compared to modern arms. It's pretty rare to find any repro that shoots to POA as it comes out of the box, so expect to have to either do some simple modifications to regulate them to your style and eyes or brush-up on your "Kentucky Windage and Elevation" skills to compensate. Not absolutely necessary for casual plinking, but lots of us do it just for grins.

The most common makers found around here are Filli Pietta and Uberti. Piettas are usually a bit less expensive. They are quite servicable, if a bit less nicely put together than the more expensive Ubertis. Uberti has been absorbed into the Beretta conglomerate but retains the brand name. Price differences vary a good deal, so some catalog and/or web shopping might be in order to find your best deal. No FFL is needed, so they may be purchased directly and delivered by mail or common carrier to most states. There are exceptions, so check your state and municipal regs.

Cabela's has a good selection of mostly Pietta models, with base models running at about $169 for both Colt and Remington models. They also offer most of them with a "starter kit" of necessities (sans powder or caps) as a package deal for somewhat less than the ala carte total.

C&B revolvers are great fun to own and shoot. With a bit of shopping, you should be able to find something that fits your budget and taste just right. Good hunting!
 
Thanks everyone for all the information.....Now I'll just start looking around and reading more, although I think everyone here covered all I need to know.
When I find one that fits, I'll post some pics.....

Thanks,

Jim
 
Gat and everyone,

In looking at all the pistols out there, from what I see there is brass on 90% of them....Now should I all brass or what? There are some beautiful pistols out there....

Jim
 
Jim - true - lots of brass!

Despite what mainmech said re brass and 44 cal - and of course his point is very valid - I think of it this way - you can get a gun for very reasonale price - it will function adequately with lighter loads and probably be satisfyingly accurate.

Final aspect - how often shooting? If now and again and not huge thruput then I reckon at very least you will get your monies-worth. If a lot of shooting anticipated and you want hotter loadings - just wait and save for better all steel.

What I am saying is - I think the brass ones are viable - as long as you realize their limitations.
 
While many many BP revolvers "have brass on them" that is different that a brass frame. Brass trigger guard/hand grip frame is fine. Brass main frame is not desirable for a regular shooter. Just doesn't hold up to the pounding over time.

My favorite BP revolver is a .36 cal "Navy" Pietta I picked up at Cabela's.

You've got a lot of great info. Now go get one and enjoy the heck out of it!
 
Brass frame

I have a brass frame 36 cal. I got it in the 60’s. I have used and abused
it. I wore out the hammer and trigger and replaced them. Had to replace
the trigger spring twice, bolt stop once and most of the screws. The
barrel wedge three times. Replacing the nipples goes without saying.
Like I said I have used & abused this gun. I think that the brass frame
held up well. Under stand that I used the devil out of this gun.

The other side of that coin is not all gun are created equal. I have seen
brass framed guns that were just for looking at. I have seen some of the
brand name guns that the hand was made of brass. That’s good for maybe
six shots. I saw one that when they tried to load it, instead of pressing
the ball into the cylinder, it pulled out the cylinder pin.

Side note: I have seen steel frame cap & balls that were junk when new too.

You get what you pay for.
 
I will be going to Cabelas' next week and check out the BP pistols there. I agree that you only get what you pay for, I'm figuring about $200-250 should get a good one....we'll see.
How many times at the range can you shoot one before you clean it?

Thanks,
Jim
 
Cabela's lists their BP revolvers on their website, so you can get an idea of what you'll spend. That said, you should easily get a revolver and all the stuff you need to get started with it for $250. IIRC, the Pietta Navy goes for around $170.
 
How many times at the range can you shoot one before you clean it?
If using black powder - EVERY time!! Corrosion will soon set in if you don't. If you use Clean Shot then could be depending on conditions (humidity etc) you might get away with not cleaning every time.

Personally I would not take a chance. Shoot plenty - clean when you get home. :)
 
What P95Carry said: after every session. While this might seem sorta "Monk"ish to those used to modern smokeless protocols, there is good reason for it.

Black gunpowder and most of its modern substitutes contain carbon. Some of this becomes residue on firing in the form of soot. It is extremely hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air) and will concentrate and hold that moisture against the metal. Black powder and many substitutes also contain sulphur. In firing residue this will react with the moisture drawn in by the soot to form a mild sulphuric acid which will accelerate the oxidation process. In even normally humid conditions, this can result in rust starting to form in a matter of hours.

It's not as much of a chore as it would seem. There are very few parts to most C&B revolver designs, and they're easy to take-down and reassemble. You don't need any special solvents or lubricants, as common household items will do the job quite well. I believe that the process is covered in some detail in the sticky, but I'll give you a couple of tips that've worked well for me.

A cheap wire mesh strainer is a big help. Put your nipples and small parts in it as you do your disassembly. It keeps everything in one place and lets you deal with some operations on the whole batch rather than a piece at a time.

Plain ol' Windex makes a wizard cleaner. Spray it on liberally and use an old nylon toothbrush an an appropriately sized nylon or bronze bore brush as needed. Some Q-Tips and a couple of pipe cleaners for the inside of the nipples will help get all of the nooks and crannies. Any slight leading in the bore can be removed with your favorite bore cleaning solvent, if neccessary.

Rinse everything thoroughly with the hottest water you can stand. Place the metal parts on a jelly roll pan or such in a warm oven (200-225) until all the water evaporates. Take them out and spray them with a good coat of WD-40. Let them cool down to about room temp.

Wipe the excess WD-40 off as you reassemble. Use your favorite lube(s) where needed. A wipe with a good furniture cleaner like "Pledge" on the grips will keep them clean and lustrous.

I'll stick with my opinions regarding brass frames. They've been formed from experience (some not-so-pleasant) and are passed along in hope of helping you get the most satisfactory service from your investment.

The reasons that the Confederacy used brass instead of iron or steel to make revolver frames were that they lacked both the raw materials and the manufacturing assets to do so. IMO, it is worthy of noting that virtually all of their copies patterned on both the Colt and Remington designs were in .36 cal. This was done so that the service life could be extended to a more acceptable, if marginal, level in field use. Pure expediency, but they had no choice if they were to get sidearms to the troops in any numbers.

FWIW, the flasks sold for charging most replica revolvers come with a metering spout sized to throw the concensus "standard" service load for that caliber. Generally, about 15-20 gr. in .36 and 25-30 gr. in .44. In order to throw a reduced charge, one must either buy another spout or do some tedious cut-and-try to obtain the desired level. Most folks don't want to go through the sometimes exasperating process of developing the 'best' load for a particular revolver and just use whatever came with the flask.

Some brass framed replicas with hold up to use with 'standard' charges well enough to satisfy the occasional plinker and recreational shooter's wants. But...

When I find that I enjoy something, I tend to do a lot more of it than I had originally imagined. That was pretty much the case with C&B revolvers. While I've worn-out or broken some individual lockwork parts with extensive shooting in steel framed replicas, I've never rendered one "unrepairable" under hard use. I have done so to a couple of brass-framed ones, one in less than 700 rounds of use with standard loads.

For the relatively small difference in initial price given similar quality of manufacture, I'd personally prefer to err on the side of caution. If you find that you don't shoot it much, you won't notice. If you end up using it regularly, you will. And it could make the difference between buying another revolver because you want to rather than because the first one crapped-out.
 
Don't know about that oven thing. Heat accelerates the rusting reaction Oxygen atoms (H2O) entering iron (Fe) = iron oxide (FeO)!. That's why iron and steel rust very fast in the summer time. Maybe if you blew off the moisture with compressed air first?

But if it works without causing rust who am I to argue, LOL.

I could not get the barrel wedge out of my replica Colt Navy until I really loosened the stop screw and tapped a jeweler's screwdriver between the frame and the spring on the other side. Then I got a brass "Huntsaver" combination tool that works perfect for knocking these wedges out. Here is the link if anyone is interest. Best gadget I've found.

http://www.possibleshop.com/tools.htm
 
If your rinse water is hot enough, the metal parts will retain enough of that heat for most of the residual water to evaporate. If you like, you can just wipe whatever little is left off and go from there.

If you have a compressed air source, it is a good way to make sure that all of the water gets removed from the crannies and crevises, especially inside of threads and nipples. If your regular cleaning takes place at the kitchen sink rather than in the garage (as it is in my case) it's just more practical to utilize what's already handy.

Basically, I'm using the oven to add additional heat to the metal so that what ever moisture which might not have been readily apparent gets completely evaporated. In addition, the minute amount of expansion from the heat seems to "open up" the surface texture of the metal so that the preservative silicone in the WD-40 can penetrate and bond with it better.

All I can really say it that this method has worked exceptionally well for me. I have a few C&B items purchased primarily because they represented the only means by which I could shoot and study a specimen of a rare model with novel and/or innovative design feaures. Most are not among my regular "shooters" and a couple haven't seen actual use for several years. They were all cleaned by this method before going back into the safe, and only one or two had any special preparation for long-term storage. None of them have showed any signs of deterioration despite what might be a year or more between inspections.
 
pards good info for any new to the sport out there , i`ve been a darksider for 30 years now , and am still learning too , i`ve got a new shooting pard thats 70 + years old , the other day he taught me a new trick and i shared one with him .. not seeing eaither mentioned here, .. for a nipple pick he carries a few small paper clips when he needs a nipple pick , just straighten one end and you have a very inexpencive pick ... beats 6 bucks at the gun shops . for me drying my guns after cleaning , ok don`t tell the wife or she`ll make ya buy one .. i use her very powerful hand held hair dryer , with heated and cold air settings , drying with too much heat does tend to flash rust ... so i start with a hot setting and soon change to the cooler air settings to finish . the thing will blow water out of all the hidding places . and they think that thing is for hair styleing . ( just don`t get caught ) :evil:
 
<Gatofeo calls Sundance44s house while he's at work ...>
Hello?
MRS. Sundance?
Did you know your husband is using your hair dryer to clean his revolver?
It's true!
And I also heard that he sits on your new couch and oils it too!
Just thought you'd like to knowwwwwwwwwww ...
:evil:
<click>

I haven't tried the hair dryer trick. Um ... I don't have a hair dryer. I'm a bachelor cat with a receding hairline. :D

I like to heat my revolver parts in the oven. That way, I"m assured of all moisture being out of the steel. Steel is rather porous and will soak up moisture and oil but appear dry on the surface. Fifteen minutes or so in an oven at low temp, with the door cracked open, ensures all parts are dry.
I never use any petroleum-based oil after all parts are dry. And I dislike WD-40 because it WILL turn to a sticky varnish over time.
Rather, I oil my cap and ball revolvers with olive oil. It's cheap, soaks into the steel well, and keeps the rust away.
I live in the remote Utah desert, where humidity is typically low. Perhaps if I lived in a very humid place I might consider a more aggressive oil to protect from rust. But here, olive oil works fine for me.
 
A tip you might find useful

Gato, I have probably been shooting as long as you,[First C&B revolver,1963] but not nearly as much nor in as disciplined a manner, but this may be of interest to some of our greeners.On the range with a San Marco 1861 Navy,two shots, then four clicks.Now, being Canadian, I did'nt have to worry about Billy Yank or Johnny Reb cleaving my skull, but a great savage
tomato can was snapping it's rusty lid at me, obviously about to charge. A cap twix the frame and hammer? Can't see any. Yet the hammer is definitely falling short. I stepped into a beam of sunlight and had a good look. An eighth inch square fragment of cap, camoflaged perfectly with a layer of fouling was stuck in the hammer slot, just enough to stop the cap getting a good hit.A little thing to watch for.Let me add my thanks to you for the excellent C&B treatise.
 
Gatofeo.. the new couch is too far to carry it all , gun safe is in the bedroom .. i sit on her side of the bed when oiling ! :neener:
 
Just a few points to reiterate or comment on anew:

1. Derek: Yep, I've also been fooled by well-camouflaged cap fragments lodged in the hammer channel. Some are so well camouflaged that, when encountering the problem you did, I take a small, narrow screwdriver and slide it down the hammer channel. On a few occasions, I've been surprised to see a flattened cap fragment suddenly free itself from the steel surface. This is best done with the revolver unloaded and upside down, so the fragment can fall free and won't fall farther down into the works.

2. I don't like WD-40 and don't use it in any guns, even modern guns. In fact, I rarely use it for anything. After a time, it congeals into a hardened varnish that is very hard to remove. It's pure poison in door locks, gun mechanisms and padlocks. It may take a while, a year or more, but WD-40 will become a hard, dried varnish after a while.
Interestingly, some anglers in northern Idaho and eastern Washington --- where I used to live --- used WD-40 to disguise human scent or as a fish attractant on their trolling gear. I saw a number of anglers hose down their flashers, cowbells, Ford fenders and lure with the stuff before putting it in the water.
I don't suggest this as it's introducing even more petroleum products to fishing waters. Plus, I never saw that it made a difference in the catch.
WD-40 has gained almost cult-like status today but I'm not a fan of the stuff.

3. My own cap and ball revolvers get a coating of olive oil. I avoid any and all petroleum products in my black powder guns --- except for canning paraffin. This stuff, sold in 1 pound blocks, apparently lacks the hydrocarbons of other petroleum products.
I use it my favorite bullet lubricant composed of
1 part paraffin
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax
All measurements are by weight, not volume.

I live in the remote Utah desert where humidity is typically low, though a passing thunderstorm can drop a lot of water on hot, dry ground and raise the humidity up to 60 percent or more in short order.
If you live where humidity is almost always high, then I'd suggest you hose down the revolver with a spray gun oil. These are made by Remington, Birchwood Casey and others. In my experience with modern firearms, it penetrates well and doesn't turn to varnish or gum over time.
But if you can, avoid petroleum products in black powder guns.

4. A paper clip as a nipple pick is a good idea, if you can find a clip tiny enough. The orifice in my nipples runs considerably smaller than the average paper clip, so I've been forced to use a commercial nipple pick for want of finding anything else suitable. I'm told that piano wire is good but I don't know of a source.
Many years ago I picked up a nipple wrench with a built-in nipple pick. It's on a brass cap that threads into the handle end of the nipple pick. It's a good gizmo and has lasted me about 30 years. It also fits my .50-caliber rifle nipples, so it's a good one to have in the possibles bag when hunting or roaming. I think they're still made and are probably around $10, as I recall.

5. After washing all parts in hot, soapy water I shake the excess water off and place them in a baking pan. Then the pan goes into the oven. The oven door is opened a bit to let steam escape and the oven is set to 150 degrees or lower. The lowest setting you can get is best.
I've never found this to accelerate rust later, as has been posited. Not if you give the warm metal parts a good coat of oil after removing from the oven.
Steel is porous and will soak up a lot of moisture or oil, so it's imperative that the parts be thoroughly dried, then oil be liberally used. After a day or so, excess oil can be wiped off the parts and the revolver may be reassembled.

6. I'm pleased that my long-winded treatise on the cap and ball sixgun has generated a number of comments. I'm not so bull-headed as to insist that my way is the only way, but I posted what I've learned from experience --- some of it contrary to what the books and advertising claim.

I hope we can keep this thread going, with even more experiences and comments from others. You're never too old to learn --- but some are too stubborn.
 
wads, lube

the felt that you recommended at the beginning of this very informative post, is that something i can find at home depot in their weather proofing area?
i make a 50/50 beewax, to paraffin mix for my other bullet lubes and i have lots of it, what do you think of using it lube the felt, or just to leave the felt out and use only powder, bullet, and lube?
for a new gun that i am getting(bought from another member and it is about a week away, can i find out the coeerct diameter bullet to use or do i need to wait to get it and measure?
can i use 45acp shells as wad cutters until i get a real wad cutter?
thanks for all the info...
 
Wonder Wad & Percussion Cap Jams

I've been using Wonder Wads with my 44 cal Colt Navy repro and I've been having a lot of trouble with the wads jamming the mechanism. I frequently get a wad stuck between the cylinder and the barrel, which very efficiently jams the gun. I haven't read about other people having this problem -- is it possibly because I'm only firing 15 grains of Triple Seven? I wondered if going to a heavier charge (like 20 grains) would do a better job of blowing out the wads. Or is it more likely that the wad is snagging on something in the cylinder or barrel? I've looked but don't see anything obvious. The wads seem awfully thick -- has anybody tried using half thickness?

I'm considering switching to lube instead -- is Wonder Lube okay for that? It seems like you'd have to put a lot of grease in the chamber to absolutely seal it. It seems to me that the .451 bullets that I use seal pretty well and it's hard to see how a chainfire could occur. I've heard people say that chainfires can happen from the percussion cap side but I don't see how (at least on the Colt).

I also have a lot of trouble with the *fired* percussion caps falling into the works and jamming the gun. Note: I've never had the problem of unfired percussion caps falling out -- the number 10 caps fit just fine. The principal trouble seems to be that the fired caps get blown apart, and the jagged pieces catch between the cylinder and the frame. Are there more rugged percussion caps that hold together better? The Remington and similar caps are pretty flimsy.

All this makes me wonder how Wild Bill and other cap & ball shooters were ever able to empty their guns without them jamming. I imagine this is one reason that they tended to carry two pistols, because one or the other was likely to jam. Does anybody know?
 
Possible fix. Put the wonder wad between the powder charge and the ball. I can see how a wonderwad on top of a ball might interfer with the action.
 
15 grains of powder should blow the wad clear of the barrel. If the wad is stuck at the back of the barrel the ball shouldn't clear the muzzle. Something here is obviously wrong.

If the caps are tight on the nipples you won't likely get a chain fire. However when you re-cock the hammer first turn the revolver over on its side so the cap fragments will fall out of the gun, rather then down into it.

The old time gunfighters that carried two guns did so because they wanted 12 shots without having to reload, which at best was a slow process.

As mec said, you load (1) the powder charge (2) the wad, and (3) the ball or bullet. If you don't use a wad, load the powder and ball, and then put the grease on top of the ball.
 
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