Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by BJung, Aug 5, 2022.
This is why, for best accuracy, brass of all the same brand & lot should be used.
I also put a 30 carbine plug in a 357 powder through die to build a 300 blackout die. You can do fun things with expander plugs.
If you would please… where?
By any chance did you disassemble any loads and see what swaging might have occurred? You’ve got me a bit curious as I have tried larger diameter (>.356) to see if there’d be a difference in group size but only saw a slight increase in V.
IMO more neck tension is lost during crimping than gained. Any reduction in the leads diameter, caused by the case being compressed around it, will reduce the “dead soft” leads diameter and the case will spring back larger. Resulting in instant loss of tension. The most tension you are going to get is the first time you stuff the larger OD into the smaller ID.
For a better understanding “Crimp”, unless one is talking about displacing a portion of the case into a cannelure, would be less confusing if everyone called it the “bell/flare removal” step.
Factory Crimp Die (FCD) can swage lead bullet diameters to a smaller size. Thereby thwarting any plans to improve accuracy by case Sizing.
Yes, I've read that too and it seems logical. I was thinking that perhaps the Factory crimp die can be beagled (enlarged in diameter) so the finished round is just under chamber size?
Yes, I've pulled seated bullets with a kinetic puller and noticed that bullets are swaged or has a crimp mark on even the jacketed bullets at times. I never measured them but will do so when I'm working at my reloading bench.
I'll have to look for the source. I was just surfing around, read, and recorded it. I think it was a Brian Enos forum.
I had a Lee FCD for a short time (it now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon). I "beagled" it by punching out the carbide ring. Still didn't care for the die, so I tossed it....
FWIW; in all my years of reloading, I have never needed to post crimp resize any handload...
I'm curious what the size and spec is for the carbide ring. I would assume it's maximum Sammi spec with a negative only tolerance. With tolerance stack of oversized bullets the thickest brass and the smallest ring it could get ugly.
Mine is .378
In the OP, I read, "The 9mm expander measures .352.... Imagine, I use to load my .357" sized bullets into a case with and inside diameter of .352"" I don't know what this means. Where was the expander measured at 0.352"?
Expanders are usually cone-like. The amount of expansion or flare is determined by how far the brass mouth is pushed onto the tapered cone. In the OP, it also states that the 38 expander is 0.356" What does this mean? A 38 flaring mandrel might have a 0.356" nose, but it is going to open the case mouth up more than that as the mouth is pushed over the taper.
I use a Redding expander die for 357 Magnum. I took the above picture from Redding's literature. I don't like the nomenclature, but what they call the "expanding diameter" is 0.355". Because my case necks come out of the Lee carbide sizing die with an ID of 0.355", the "expanding diameter" is not really expanding the case neck. The "concentric ring" is 0.360". This is where the case mouth is opened up to accept a 0.357" bullet without swaging it or having the edge of the mouth shave it. If I adjust the expanding mandrel deeper into the die, the brass mouth will get pushed onto the "final taper." This taper opens up the mouth of the case and can flare it rather wide. I've used more of the "final taper" flare with powder-coated cast lead bullets to avoid shaving them when seating. For plated and jacketed bullets, I'm mostly using the "concentric ring." This ring opens up the first part of the mouth so the bullet will sit in it. Then I seat the bullet down into the portion of the neck that is two thou smaller than the bullet. I like two thou to avoid "crimp jump" and build up some starting pressure for good combustion. If I wanted one thou, I'd have to open up my sizing die. This expanding mandrel does not go down the full length of the neck that holds the bullet so even if the "expanding diameter" portion of this mandrel were bigger, it would not be the way to set neck tension.
Another kind of mandrel could be used to open the case neck inside diameter, but an expanding mandrel often works just to flare the mouth.
In simpler terms, the Profile Crimp Die rolls the first part of the crimp into the crimp grove. This is what holds the bullet from coming out of the case due to inertia when fired in a revolver. The second part of the profile crimp is a concave taper crimp across the crimp grove. This is what holds the bullet so that it is not pushed into the case under the pressure of the tubular magazine spring.
I thought we were measuring fcd carbide rings. My mistake.
Then, Lordpaxman and rfwobbly mentioned swaging and the Lee FCD. So, I went off track with this test wondering if a case that's sized too small will swage a cast bullet and what is the difference between some cases in relation to the chamber. My 9mm is stored away but my .357 is out and I had brass and the dies available so I just measured them out of curiosity. Sorry for the going off track.
AJC1. I measured the inside hole diameter of my Lee FC die using a small hole gauge and a micrometer
The .001" neck tension, may greatly increases possible bullet set back on chambering? More so with mixed range brass?
My 9mm Luger RCBS expander could be .354" for my cast at .3562" maybe?
I would try these expanders, if i thought i had a problem. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/
I missed the measurement. I used my caliper because that's what I have here, a good or best would be a pin, but those are at my dad's. Checking the Sammi spec my fcd is .001 below max meaning that it probably uses that margin for springback. I have a tube mic for measuring necks but I haven't measured brass yet. I may do that next week while the kids are back at school.
Why not 9mm as the OP described? As 243Win said, If he is only getting 1 or 2 thousands interference fit he will have set back and his next post will be " Why did my gun blow up?"
So, with .357mag ABLP press, Redding Dual Ring sizing die which sizes the neck to same dia as my RCBS carbide die does, and Lyman M-die which doesn't change the resized dia of the case, only puts a step in it. I will check to see if I loose any dia with the normal sized seating stems.
This about whether an untouched sizing stem that makes an interference fit of .0055" will swage down a soft lead bullet.
I don't have any truly swaged bullets like Hornady sells that is dead soft, only plated and my WW bullets that I can mark with my thumb nail.
Case as fired - .378" outside of mouth
Resized with Dual ring - .373 outside of mouth
- .3525 inside of mouth
Flared with m-die
first step of M-die .3545" second step is bullet starting step= .3600" then tapered flare.
Bullet is plated DEWC 158 gr @.358" dia.
I flared to just enough to get the bullet to stick in the mouth of the case.
Seated to the depth that Lyman seating die was set at. Length was 1.4475 which was just shy of the upper cannular.
Checked neck tension, 44 lbs. Good for normal loads, is more than fine and only light taper crimp.
Wanted to mark the bullet so I knew which end was in the case after I knocked it out.
Knocked apart with RCBS Kinetic hammer. Diameter of bullet was still .3580" No swaging.
I don't see the need to mess with your resizing stems. Plated bullets have really soft cores so I doubt that your lead bullets will be any different.
In fact I will repeat this test with one of my LSWCs that I cast myself to see what the result are with it.
horizontal mark above crimp grove is my thumbnail. Tumble lubed and sized to .358"
Resized case is same .373" outside, .3525" inside.
Flared with M-die is same as above. .373 inside, .3525" outside, with step to start bullet. Step = .360"
Seated to top crimp groove with no crimp at all. This is about neck tension. Got 60Lbs of neck tension.
Alox probably has something to do with that. I get 60lbs with coated lead bullets also.
Knocked out with RCBS Kinetic hammer.
base down. .358"
Again, no swaging of WW lead bullet. This is with a case resized to .3545" so again, no need to mess with the sizing profile or dia because of a fear of swaging a bullet to a smaller dia.
I don't have a factory crimp die to see what it will do to a soft lead bullet. I don't want to buy one because I never needed one. I could give it away in the "pass it forward" thread though.
I may have to try to barrow one around here, but reloaders around here are few and far between.
Ok, but the expander does not size the case neck. It only opens the case mouth. The 38 expander will not size the case neck for a bullet measuring .357". It just doesn't do that. The only thing it does is flare the case mouth. If you want to flare the mouth of 9mm case more, you don't need an expander for a larger cartridge like 38, just push the flaring cone of the 9mm expander farther down onto the mouth and it will open it up wider and wider.
Expander dies are not mandrel dies like Sinclair, KMS or LE Wilson that are used to open the case neck to a certain inside diameter.
Expander Dies To Flare The Inside Dimension Of The Neck | RCBS
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