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How would you feel about socialized medicine?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Clean97GTI, May 27, 2005.

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  1. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    First off, this is not firearms related, however the description of this thread says other civil rights. Lock/Delete if you feel its not proper here, but I believe this to be a valid thread and topic.

    The first thing that pops into the minds of many is that socialized medicine is a trap and it rarely works as well as it should. The costs are high and freedoms robbed.

    Well, I have a new idea...sorta. I was debating with a friend of mine about wasteful government spending. He mentioned programs and agencies we fund that really benefit citizens. When I asked which ones, the first one he mentioned was NASA. He believes we should continue to fund NASA and space exploration. I disagree and feel that those billions of dollar could be better spent developing one of the best social medicine programs in the world.

    So, my idea is that we axe wasteful programs (remember, NASA dug a couple $140,000,000 craters on Mars not too long ago) and divert that money into a social med program. You are already being taxed X ammount anyway, why not put it to better use? We could lose wasteful things like Medicare and Medicaid or streamline them into the new CHS (Citizens Health Service)
    Doctors would contract with CHS at a reasonable rate (docs gotta make a living too) as well as nurses.
    Drug companies would be required to provide drugs at a reasonable cost (or they don't get the contract) Either you deal with the citizens as a whole or you deal with the few rich folks who will go to you directly.
    Basically, we do what Canada does except better. The insurance companies go away and your taxes don't change much if at all. The medical savings account some had proposed wouldn't be needed and could be diverted into this fund. It must be sacred though. Congress can't touch it...EVER!!! The Senate nor The Prez, nor any court should be allowed to dip into the CHS fund. We can't ruin this thing the way we did with Social Security. Oh yeah, services to non-citizens would only be offered in VERY special circumstances. We're not here to play free clinic to the third world, let the UN have that mess.

    What do you think? What would you add or subtract?
     
  2. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    Sorry, Clean

    No governmemt give-away program EVER stayed within bounds. No doubt similar good intentions surrounded the founding of the British and Canadian systems, as well as America's Medicare.

    Repeat after me: Any government program which takes money from Peter to give to Paul can count on Paul's votes to take ever more money from Peter. And the politician will use Peter's money to buy Paul's votes.

    All entitlement programs, however well-intentioned, ultimately do only one thing efficiently: they buy lots of votes.

    ANd if you take the King's shilling, you must dance to the King's tune: if gov't money is spent on your health care, then gov't will assume the right to restrict any of your behaviors which might increase health care costs. Like smoking. Or alcohol. Or seat belts. Or fatty foods.

    Or gun ownership.
     
  3. Wiley

    Wiley Member

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    You keep using the word 'reasonable'. Define it.

    Show me any government program that has outperformed what the private sector can do and I might listen.

    Post office? FedEx/UPS puts them to shame. Medicine? The US has the best medical delivery system in the world. Bar none! Education? The private schools/home schooling are by any measure, better.
     
  4. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    Y'see, Clean,

    the govt is a political animal. Therefore any program it administers will be governed not by efficiency, not by fairness, not by fiscal resposibilty, but by politics. Witness the current flap over closing of excess military bases. Here in NH my senators are working fevrishly to prevent the closing of the Porstmouth Naval Shipyard. Not because it is in the best ineterst of the nation's defense, but because their constituents demand it.
     
  5. garyk/nm

    garyk/nm Member

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    Anyone who has belonged to an HMO has already experienced the kind of treatment you would recieve under Socialized Medicine. No thanks. Accountants have no business deciding courses of treatment and neither do politicians.
    :barf:
     
  6. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Socialized medicine doesnt work because of free riding and the fact that there is no incentive to keep costs down.

    The future is with a mix of traditional chinese medicine and modern western medicine. Accupuncture plus a week of herbs is like 50 bucks. And it works fast. If youre feeling bad and a normal doctor tells you "oh theres nothing wrong with you" the chinese guy will immediately realize whats wrong and fix it. The chinese are far from perfect, but 2000 years of practice have given them a system of medicine that is both cheap and supremely effective. The sad thing is that it is slowly dying out in china. I hope that we can keep it alive in this country.
     
  7. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    We have major problems in healthcare (and they are scheduled to get profoundly worse in the foreseeable future) simply because there is a third party (be it govt or insurance) standing between service providers and service consumers. Ain't nuthin' gonna get better until that is fixed. Tweak the system all you want. Won't help. :scrutiny:
     
  8. shermacman

    shermacman Member

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    Government medical will be the same as:
    Government public housing
    Government welfare
    Government border security
    Government food stamps
    Government public transportation
    Period.

    Why would it be any different? What business model of a government program would be comparable?
     
  9. Igloodude

    Igloodude Member

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    You haven't explained how your solution gets around the "costs are high and freedoms robbed" image.

    How about we axe both NASA and government entitlements?
     
  10. MikeIsaj

    MikeIsaj Member

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    I would expect socialized medicine to run about as efficiently as socialized anything else already does. Do you like welfare, social security and the EPA? If so, you'll just love social medicine.
     
  11. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    Been in an HMO. If this is what "socialized medicine" is even remotely about, I'll pass...thankyew very much.

    I've seen the Canadian example of SocMed...again, I'll pass, thanx.

    Was visting Niagra Falls last summer...native Canadian bus driver guide says "...Yes, we have free medical care. Our Sales Taxes are 15%, but our health care is free...Maybe you will live long enough to get in if you're sick. Just hope the sales taxes don't go up to 19%, as is being bandied about . . ."
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2005
  12. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    NASA is the only fedgov program that ever returned a profit to the public at large. About a 10:1 ratio, which is better than most private-sector endeavors. The spin-offs are too numerous to mention, and the downstream derivatives of those spin-offs are legion.

    Think "medicine", for one thing. Think "computers", for another. Just the forcing of mini- and micro-technology by weight-saving needs led to a helluva lot of what enables today's world--including the home computer and thus the Internet. What money do you think paid for the R&D to allow changing from vacuum tube computers to silicon chips?

    Even the disaster of Chafee/White/Grissom created a dividend: Nomex, which not only keeps car racers alive in fires, but is sorta helpful to your local fire department as well.

    And a helluva lot of money went into R&D in metallurgy and plastics--which has given us multitudes of modern materials we now use in place of steel or bakelite.

    Yeah, fedgov does waste a lot of money. Gripe about it all you want. But at least learn a little more before knocking the only profitable endeavor the tax money went into.

    Art
     
  13. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    Art,

    do you mean profit as in NASA brought in more revenues than it spent, or do you mean the spin-offs were beneficial to the US? Because if it's the spin-offs, they were an accident and not part of a deliberate govt program. Beneficial yes, but not by desighn.
     
  14. Mr. X

    Mr. X member

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    What is it with Canadian bus drivers? Last time I was in Canada, Vancouver specifically, around 10 years ago, the bus driver loved socialized medicine because it was "free." :rolleyes:

    At least your bus driver was way smarter.
     
  15. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    The only three things government consistently does well are:

    1. Tax the commoners.
    2. Infringe the rights of commoners.
    3. Look after the interests of government.
     
  16. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    Socialized anything = theft and redistribution of wealth.
     
  17. Sean Cloherty

    Sean Cloherty Member

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    Tanstaafl.
     
  18. lee n. field

    lee n. field Member

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    Why do you expect the gov't to make reasonable judgements?

    What's a reasonable rate? The whole system is disconnected from any kind of market feedback. Everything gets out of kilter fast.

    Kind of like what we have now, except that right now it's mostly employer funded medical insurance insulating the end users from costs.

    I'm speaking here as someone who's had health insurance 3 years out of the last 15. I've seen what COBRA insurance costs. If I to pay for my family to be insured I'd be paying out half of take home pay. So my family is covered by a patchwork. Kids in college, covered by whatever their college does. Kids at home covered by Kidcare (medicaid), which may or may not be there next year, depending on vagaries of gov't. Wife covered by some sort of arrangement with SS disability, ditto. And I worry, and go to the countyhealth dept. clinic, take my vitamins and hope nothing serious goes wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2005
  19. nico

    nico Member

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    It's funny you should mention that. I had a class this past semester with a professor whose main area of research is studying the science behind traditional Chinese Medicine and how it can be incorporated into or used in conjunction with western medicine.

    On topic: socialized medicine would most definitely not be a good thing and, as Art pointed out, would be removing one of the few good government programs if done as you described. One of the biggest problems with your idea is the use of the word "reasonable." What is a reasonable fee and who decided what it is? The biggest problem with HMOs is that administrators are the ones who decide what "reasonable" is. For example, my dad is a dentist. He charges about $600 or $700 for a root canal. Most HMOs would pay about $150-$200 for a root canal. If he participated with any HMOs (he won't for this reason) their fee would barely cover the cost of materials for a root canal. That doesn't even take into account the facts that he has to pay his employees, rent, and for all the equipment he uses to do a root canal ($30,000 chair, $1500 instruments, etc.).

    Because of all these factors, practices that participate with a bunch of HMOs generally have lower quality equipment and staff (because both are cheaper) and patients are run through them like an assembly line, with the doctors spending as little time with the patients as possible. The craziest part about the whole situation, is practices that don't accept HMOs generally have lower standard fees because they're not trying to recoup the money lost to treating HMO patients.

    It's the same thing with drug companies. Profitable drugs, like Viagra, make it possible to conduct research into cures for rare diseases (which aren't profitable because the market is small) and to provide those drugs for lower prices.

    Maybe I'm just touchy on the subject because I'm about to start dental school, but the idea having someone who knows nothing about my profession dictate what a "reasonable" income for me is annoys me as much as having someone tell me what a "reasonable" number of guns is. I just spent 4 years busting my butt to get good enough grades to get into dental school. Starting in August, I'll be taking 24 credits, which will increase by a few every semester, topping out at 37 credits by my 8th semester, all the while paying ~$30,000/year. When I get done in 4 years, I'll be 26 and $120,000+ in debt so I'll be damned if I'm going to work for what I could make with a B.S. or M.S. in biology.

    ::steps off soap box:: :)
     
  20. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

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    Should this be "How DO you feel about socialized medicine?" It's already here.
     
  21. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    So just imagine how much more profitable and beneficial NASA could have been if it wasn't run by a government bureaucracy ... If space exploration where privatized we'd have several space stations, probably a moon base and maybe even people on Mars (and who knows what technological advances would have been made while working on those projects).


    Free markets are ALWAYS better then government bureaucracies ... doesn't matter what the subject is.


    Oh, and NEVER NEVER EVER use the word "reasonable" when proposing government policy.

    What's "reasonable" to you might be "treasonable" to me ... remember to some people "reasonable" gun control is a total ban on all civilian gun ownership, while to others (like me) "reasonable" gun control is repeal of every gun law on the books.
     
  22. boofus

    boofus Guest

    How can people trust the government to take care of its entire civilian population's medical needs when they drop the ball on military veterans so frequently?

    The fedgov doesn't have a very good track record when it comes to taking care of their heros, much less mere civilians.
     
  23. bedlamite

    bedlamite Member

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    If I didn't regularly hear horror stories coming out of Canada about a 6 month to a year wait to see a doctor, I would only be rabidly against it.
     
  24. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    I think socialized medicine is a great idea!

    While we're at it, let's have socialized food, too. After all, food is a basic "right" of all people - you can't live without it, right? Food stamps are just a partial solution, like Medicare/medicaid. Get everybody in the system and it will work better. Your taxes will only go up "a little" and you can just walk into the [government run] grocery store and pick up whatever you want at "no cost." Also, this enables the government to only supply you with the food that you "need" and that is "good for you" which also will save money in the socialized medicine system. Food that is not processed and labeled by the federal system will be forbidden, of course, and anyone found consuming or possessing black market food will be arrested and imprisoned. Provisions of Patriot Act VI will help enforce the "War on Food."

    :neener:
     
  25. Iain

    Iain Member

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    I've had a long discussion with Khornet (which I'm not sure I ever thanked him for, his patience was exemplary) and others over this. The thread will be locked away in RT.

    Suffice it to say that I am pretty torn on this. There are problems with our health system for sure, but I can tell you from experience that when you are inside it, and the doctors know you, things can move pretty fast. I've rung my specialist doctors and mentioned that something totally unrelated is going on and been offered appointments for that week, even the same day (I've not usually taken them, except when I got a lab laser shone in my eye several years ago) If I ring up with some concern related to my condition I will be seen asap.

    On the other hand - the system generally stinks for doctors. I'd not want to be an NHS doctor.

    There is good medical research done here, despite what is sometimes alleged.

    Whatever you do there is always going to have to be some sort of net.
     
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