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How would you handle this encounter with law enforement?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by sherman123, Apr 28, 2012.

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  1. sherman123

    sherman123 Member

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    For the record this is in no way meant to be a cop bashing thread. I am simply asking how the good folks here would respond to such a situation. I don't want this thread to get locked so if we could please stick to suggestions that would be great. I am withholding my own opinions of law enforcement for this reason.

    I was recently pulled over for going 2 miles over speed limit by a local LEO on the way home from submission grappling class.(It was late at night,I'm 25 but look like I'm still in high school so that was probably why lol). I was carrying and in my home state there is no duty to inform unless officer specifically asks if you are carrying. The cop didn't understand our state law and demanded to know why I didn't tell him and insisted that I had violated a law. I told him that there is no duty to inform law in our state and he basically said that I didn't know what I was talking about.

    When I pulled over I kept my hands on steering wheel and made no movements until clearly told to do so by officer. Yet he decided to make a comment that if he had to shoot me it would've been my fault because I didn't inform him I was carrying. If he shot me he would've been charged with murder and it certainly wouldn't have been my fault. I was calm up until this point and that admittedly made me livid but I kept my cool and didn't show it.

    I don't appreciate threats of physical violence directed my way. I knew then and there I was going to call the campus police dept'(he is a university cop who has jurisdiction outside of campus) and there was no point in arguing with someone who clearly wasn't very stable.

    I have already called campus police to politely report this thuggish behavior to his superior/superiors. I was informed the man in charge was out until Monday so I plan on calling back then. Does anyone think I should take further action as far as possibly calling state police? I just want to make sure this gets handled right because I worry those in charge there won't care since I know a few other folks who were harassed for no reason by officers of the same dep't. It's gotten to the point where they've developed a reputation for this in the past few months. Thank you all.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2012
  2. BCCL

    BCCL Member

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    I'd VERY politely talk to his superior Monday, but not sure why you would call the state police, unless the campus police are part of them?
     
  3. NOLAEMT

    NOLAEMT Member

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    Agreed, a face to face talk with his superior along with an open records request for the audio/video tape to bring along would be my first impression.
     
  4. Black Knight

    Black Knight Member

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    I wouldn't call out the big guns just yet, so to speak. I would contact their chief and file an informal complaint first. If the chief balks at this then file a formal complaint. Then if this does nothing you should contact your state's Attorney General's Office and file a formal complaint there. Try to get it straightened out at the lowest level possible first. If you bring in the big guns at first everyone may just clam up or cast suspition on your character.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  5. PBR Streetgang

    PBR Streetgang Member

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    Ok ,a question before I give you a answer.....Does your CCW permit show when your license or registration is run by the officer? Some states alert the officer that the driver has a CCW permit.
     
  6. Tinpig

    Tinpig Member

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    Sounds like you kept your cool and handled it very well indeed. Good that you didn't further rile a guy already on a short fuse, and good that you lodged a complaint later. Chances are they've had other problems with this officer, or that they need to review their policies and training.

    I'd give the campus police a chance to do the right thing thing before getting the staties involved. If you're not taken seriously, try talking to the university administrator in charge of campus policing. It's your college; your tuition (or taxes) are paying all their salaries.

    Tinpig
     
  7. RCWFL

    RCWFL Member

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    At the point he was claiming that you were breaking the law I'd tell him that I'd comply with his orders and I'd ask him to call his supervisor.

    If I was arrested I'd keep my mouth shut until I was released.

    If I was not arrested I'd make a note to inform a police supervisor of his lack of knowledge of the law.

    Some folks don't know everything.
     
  8. mg.mikael

    mg.mikael Member

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    Is this what the officer wrote out specifically on the ticket? If so, I'd fight the ticket as well since 2 mph over the speed limit is impossible to enforce. Since your speedometer could very well be off those 2mph or his radar could be off. Either way that's like saying your 0.5 mph over the speed limit......which is pretty much impossible to prove.
     
  9. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    How did the cop find out you were armed?

    Don't bet on it. (who would bring the charges?)
     
  10. Shoobee

    Shoobee member

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    2 miles over the speed limit is still 2 miles over the speed limit.

    A speed limit is a speed limit. So you broke the law while you were carrying concealed.

    That was your first mistake.

    You need to be more vigilant about obeying the law whenever you are armed.

    Your second mistake was failing to have enough common sense to know that if an officer or anyone else sees you going for something that looks like a gun, now that his life is also in danger, he is going to draw on you. I would have drawn on you at that point.

    If a police officer pulls you over, and walks up to you, and you have no doubt he/she is really a bonafide police officer, you should always have the courtesy and common sense to inform him you are armed, therefore please don't draw on you.

    Since his gun is holstered and yours is concealed, you won't stand a chance if he draws on you.

    You are lucky he did not kill you.

    I am sure they will deal with your complaint on Monday, as in get it behind them.

    I do not believe the officer did anything wrong. Neither will his/her boss.
     
  11. mrvco

    mrvco Member

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    I assume he asked once he saw he had a CCW permit after running his license.

    And I'm ~pretty sure~ that a police officer can't just open fire on you because he/she thinks you may have a gun hidden on your person (legally or not). (Nothing in the OP makes it sound like there was any sort of threat other than seeing that the driver had a CCW permit and the officer returning to ask whether they were carrying or not).
     
  12. 84B20

    84B20 Member

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    As was stated in a previous post, the accuracy of the human eye or radar detector is not always that precise. Also, as was also stated in a previous post his state does not require him to inform. Please re-read the posts before passing judgment. The campus cop was out of line with his threat.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2012
  13. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    What point exactly is that? Was it when OP had both hands on the steering wheel?
     
  14. snakeman

    snakeman Member

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    I'd run that jerk through every ounce of misery I could muster and make an example out of him. They have to know that they aren't superior and don't have above average rights. I'd sue his the pants off of him and make it public by calling the press. That's what I would do. He had no right to threaten or harass you. Actually I would RUIN that whole campus department.
     
  15. Espada

    Espada Member

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    You did right in not antagonizing the officer. The brightest and best don't gravitate to police work.
     
  16. 84B20

    84B20 Member

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    Now that's a bit jaded! I have worked with many LEO's in a previous career and found your comment to be totally inaccurate.
     
  17. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    May you one day be judged in the same manner you judge others.
     
  18. Serenity

    Serenity Member

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    Well that was rude, Espada. :scrutiny:

    Shoobee if you'd read the OP closely you would have seen that he kept his hands on the steering wheel. :confused:

    Sherman123, you showed great restraint and common sense. Rare enough qualities in humans one at a time, let alone combined. :)

    I second (or third) the opinion to start your complaint at the lowest level and allow them the chance to respond.
     
  19. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Go with the complaint on Monday, and then follow through all the way up the chain if you can.
    He never stated how the officer discovered he was armed, so he may have informed him later during the encounter. If there is no requirement to state I am armed, there is no NEED to, as I know I am not going to try to murder anyone.
    Wanna bet? There's a reason officers usually pop the thumb break and have a hand on a holstered sidearm - because there is no telling how fast someone can bring a concealed weapon into play.
    If he had, it's possible charges could be filed, if A), the young man didn't have the gun in his hand, and B) made no moves, overt or covert towards threatening the officer. If the officer had shot the young man simply because he was lawfully armed, the officer would quite likely be "demoted" to inmate for 25-life. If he had killed him, who knows - does his state have the Death Penalty?
    BAD attitude. They should deal with the complaint, as in DEAL WITH IT, as a legitimate complaint of an officer perhaps in violation of both policy and law.
    You weren't there, hotshot, and neither was I. Just how well do you know his boss? You must be good golfing buddies, eh? :)


    To the OP, please let us know how the followup goes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  20. David E

    David E Member

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    Seriously?

    How in the world could you possibly reach this insane conclusion?
     
  21. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Member

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    I have not been impressed with the University of Kentucky police officers, and if I'm reading your post correctly, that's who you were dealing with. You certainly do not have a legal obligation to inform in this state, but I can't say whether or not they see your CCW status when they run your plates.

    (On a side note, without a permit in Kentucky, you're still legal to carry a loaded or unloaded firearm in your glovebox, console, or seatback. All legally allowed by statute. Would you have a duty to inform then? I can only imagine how the cop in question would react if you informed and DIDN'T have a CCW.)

    I always wonder when a cop starts insisting that you've done something illegal (when there's no statute to back them up), why they aren't just citing you or arresting you if they're so sure?

    It is beyond the pale for an officer to talk smack about how he would have shot you if you'd looked at him funny. That kind of Rambo attitude is immature, and frankly, frightening in a police officer. I cannot imagine a single situation in which I would find it acceptable for a police officer to speculate to a citizen about the hypothetical circumstances in which he'd shoot him. When they have you on the roadside like that, it's especially disturbing because you're in custody and not free to leave. So they're abusing their power by forcing you to listen to their Napoleonic fantasies about killing you.

    You should definitely report him to his supervisor, although I frankly doubt that it will do much good.

    Also, don't expect the Fayette County Commonwealth Attorney's office to charge a cop with murder if he just flies off the handle and shoots you. Have you seen Ray Larson's website? It's nauseating.

    Aaron
     
  22. loose noose

    loose noose Member

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    As a retired LEO from what you stated the campus police officer was definitely in the wrong. First for stopping you, and second for inferring he could have shot you for the violation. I would definitely speak to his superior in reference to the event, I have no idea how that officer could have passed a psychological exam, which is usually the first requirement of becoming an officer. Further if what you said is accurate, that officer is a terrible reflection on the entire staff of the campus police force.:mad:
     
  23. elrowe

    elrowe Member

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    Why wouldn't you let him know anyway? Although you're right that there is no duty to inform in KY, according to my KY CCDW Instructor's Manual, "If you have any weapons with you, you should tell the officer." (pg. 20, 4th edition) There's similar language in the Applicant Manual, I just don't have a copy handy. It also makes sense to do so regardless of what state you're in as I travel extensively across the river into Ohio that makes it criminal not to inform, so we just do it the same every time.

    His comments were not necessarily out of line, maybe his tone (wasn't there to judge), but not the content. If you'd bent over to reach into the glove box and your shirt rode up, he'd have cleared leather on you in a heartbeat, that's what happens when cops are surprised by guns. That would have been a real game-changer caused by you not giving him the courtesy.

    All of the instructors that I work with make a point to highlight the safety aspects of informing the officer (didn't yours?), and all of the LEOs that I know want to know about it. Particularly, since I'm assuming your encounter was with an officer from UK or UofL, they have a lot of shady stuff happening around them, particularly at night.

    From a personal standpoint, when I was stopped for a burnt out headlight last week, I had no problem after stating "I am a concealed carry permit holder and am currently armed." In fact, a couple of friends have ended up in general firearms discussions after notifying the officers who stopped them.
     
  24. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    Yes, but this wouldn't qualify -- it has to be aggravated murder to get the death penalty in Kentucky, and "aggravated" is pretty narrowly defined. However, if prosecuted federally as a civil rights violation it could get a death penalty. HTH.
     
  25. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    Stopping you for 2 miles over is the first clue you're dealing with a LEO who is looking for confrontation. That said, he is still a sworn LEO, and your duty is to obey him now and deal with your opinion of his conduct later.
     
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