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How would you have handled this one

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by gym, Oct 1, 2013.

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  1. Atom Smasher

    Atom Smasher Member

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    There's actually a ton of video around that shows the bikers being real jerks to everybody immediately prior to the part where the biker cut the rover off. Personally, I think a gun would have resulted in a bunch of deaths, including the rover's driver (and possibly his family). Better off the way it went down.
     
  2. all357mag

    all357mag member

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    Really, a car vs bikes? Would there be a need for firearms? A thousand better ways to diffuse this situation!
     
  3. rugerdude

    rugerdude Member

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    You can clearly see the biker intentionally brake-check and stop the SUV from in front. He looks directly at the driver as he slows down. Also, in the video it appears that someone attempts to open the driver door during the first stop, which caused the driver to gun it. No matter what happened prior to the video beginning, that kind of response by the bikers is unwarranted. You do not shut down a highway with dozens of your buddies surrounding a car because you want to exchange insurance info. If I show up with six armed men in ski masks on your doorstep to sell you girl-scout cookies, I can't claim surprise when I'm greeted with bullets.

    Personally I would have kept to the highway until a police cruiser was following me. He made the mistake of getting off the highway and hitting traffic. Maybe he was going to a police station, or maybe he thought the abundance of witnesses would deter an attack. Clearly they did not :(

    The main lesson here I think is that you need to consider your vehicle as a self-defense weapon, not just your carry gun. Another important lesson is that you cannot rely on "passive deterrents" such as well-lit, crowded areas with cameras etc. to deter a violent aggressor.
     
  4. gym

    gym member

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    A couple of brothers who I was friendly with way back in the 80's had a High end Limo service that "for that time" had the highest security you could get.
    Them catered to some of the most important Fortune 100 CEO's and entertainers in the world.
    We used to go out all the time with one of their vehicles, it had everything from electricity that could be switched on from inside the car, "the kind that would fry your butt if you touched any part", also bullet proof all around and tear gas in and out.
    Much of the stuff was not even legal, but they knew the right people. I think that is the type of vehicle that would be the only way to survive an attack like this.
    Also the tires were impenetrable. There were portals for shooting and masks for gas.
    Problem was the cars were several hundred thousand in options, they even had a blow torch underneath, on a few cars that would fry anyone who refused to back off.
    It would have ended these guys pretty fast.
     
  5. swiftak

    swiftak Member

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    welllllll, in NH we have the no retreat law. I would not have been dragged out of my truck. In NY you are not allowed to defend yourself'
     
  6. freyasman

    freyasman Member

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    Just a suggestion, but when you're driving and you encounter a large group of motorcyclists, just pull over to the right lane and let them go on by..... Most of them are good people, (even a lot of the riders in the video) and the few that are not, will go down soon enough. Every rider does, sooner or later..... Isn't awareness and avoidance what we are supposed to do?
     
  7. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    Sometimes there really is no good option. Based on the news reports I’ve read the bikers were behaving obnoxiously before the incident started, I would have been on the phone to the police then and I might have just pulled over and let them pass before the altercation started.

    After it started with my wife and kid in the car? I don’t think I’d have an option I’d have to shoot
     
  8. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

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    Ayup ... once any of them actually started breaking into the car, I would have felt the need to do whatever possible to eliminate the obvious & immediate dire threat to my family & myself.
     
  9. BLB68

    BLB68 Member

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    That guy in the first pic in the NY Daily News link would have found out how far motorcycles bounce if he pulled that on me. Box me in with a pack of bikes then slow down in front of me? With my wife in the car? There's nothing non-threatening about that situation. You're going to get bounced. Your buddies, should they decide to get vengeance for your bouncy butt will likewise get bounced, until the police show up to see what all of the fuss is about.
     
  10. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    An Additional Thought

    I just saw the video on GMA again and I noted that when the one biker is knocking out the driver’s window there’s another guy beating on the rear passenger window.

    I’ve seen the video before but that was the first time I realized the implication there, Based on this scenario my child is on the other side of that window, if nothing else would cause me to open fire that certainly would have.
     
  11. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Member

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    IMHO, in this situation the vehicle is a better self defense weapon than a firearm. Something else that comes to mind is the type of firearm I would want to have to defend my family in a situation like this. Large group of potential attackers, I would have thought a short carbine would be the way to go, but after watching the video a pistol that could be more easily handled and retained one handed (as I used the other to continue to maneuver the vehicle, if possible) would be my choice.
     
  12. Willie Sutton

    Willie Sutton Member

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    "When he was first surrounded and decided to flee, he should have pulled out slowly..... use the vehicle to push them out of the way rather than gunning it and hitting them."


    This is part of the basics out of any exective protection driving course: Make slow contact and then accellerate gently to shove obsticles out of the way.

    A Range Rover can move any car of reasonable size out of the way if driven correctly. I'ver shoved a Suburban aside with a Ford Crown Victoria in training.

    The game is one of pure self defense at the moment the first hand penetrates thru a window that has been broken. Aim and do your best. If in doubt shoot the leader first. I'd aim right for the spot between his upper lip and his nose. Study physiology and you'll see why. Nothing like a no-reflex drop of the Alpha to start the conversation with the rest of the mob.

    I drive a Suburban for a reason, and there's a reason that my truck pistol is a M9 with six loaded magazines in addition to the one in the pistol. You never know what/who/how many. Lessons learned "elsewhere" still resonate.


    Willie

    .
     
  13. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    I see nothing wrong with what the driver did [to protect his family]. I doubt that he had a gun in the first place.

    To speculate here as to what you would have done is like "armchair quarterbacking". Pretty much useless.

    No matter what. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF ANYONE AFTER THE FACT.
     
  14. tepin

    tepin Member

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    In the same situation: Escape; Use vehicle as weapon; Stuck in traffic use firearm if one is available, otherwise take the beating and hope they don't kill you and the family.
    Massad Ayoob said in his DVD Judicious Use of Deadly Force that, if attacked by a mob, disparity of force exists and all members of the mob shall share in the jeopardy that the mob has caused. His example was, you fire at the guy closest to you and miss, hitting and killing his companion behind him. Good-to-go until disparity of force no longer exists or the threat is no longer a threat.

    I'll bet the SUV driver was wishing for a Glock 19 with a box of 33 round mags. Frighting, especially with wife and kid in the car.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
  15. tepin

    tepin Member

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    Good comments Willie. Especially on the PIT maneuver.

    I think I will buy those 33 round mags for my G19. Makes sense and I need an excuse. ;)
     
  16. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    If I got stuck in traffic it would only take one helmet strike before I put it in reverse and plowed through anything behind me. I would even try to get it turned around and head back the way I came. Even if it is the wrong way.

    If my vehicle got really stuck/imobile then its go time, I guess.

    I wonder if it would be better to present and threaten them rather than wait till last second to fire?

    In a crowd like that you are going to run out of ammo (or lose your gun) if they swarm you but making them realize that you are going to be picking your targets and they realize that some of them are going to get shot could be better?

    Course they were pretty close to start with... If my window was shattered by some crazed person, we are well past the "I will shoot you" stage and into the shots being fired stage.
     
  17. tepin

    tepin Member

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    Their intent is clear and considering wife and child in the car... firing immediately, one shot into the 3 or 5 closest bikers will cause the rest to run, hopefully. Threatening the use of deadly force... they might not believe you'll use could result in losing the gun and being killed anyway. The mob seeing the first 5 closest to you drop will be more of a deterrent (I would think) to the rest getting too close. Maybe enough time for the cops to arrive. Firing into a group of bikers will surely bring legal troubles as most regular folks will ask why you didnt fire 10 or 15 warning shots into the air :eek: - Judged by 12 or carried by 6 comes to mind. The SUV driver appears to have been in a no-win situation even if he had had a firearm. Sounds like even if the guy comes out of his coma he will be paralyzed.
     
  18. Blue Brick

    Blue Brick Member

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdQaLt4xKfs
     
  19. 9MMare

    9MMare Member

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    I'm sure this was the first thought of many here.

    But if you are stuck (why else are you letting someone smash in your window?), and you shoot, what makes you think no one in that group will have a gun and shoot back? It think it's pretty likely.

    So if you decide to shoot...you may have no other choice...you should expect an actual gunfight. And there is no where for your family to hide.

    Best bet *if possible*. Keep moving to police station, etc.
     
  20. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    I think it's a dam good case of having your wife be on board with shooting and having a defensive mindset. Traveling with two guns and competent shooters in a vehicle that is substantial enough to resist being stopped and powerful enough to push or go over simple obstacles is more important than good mileage IMO.
    That child should have been laid on the floor and the wife should have been calling 911 with gun in hand and husband pushing the truck forward to open ground/highway.
    If worse came to worse having both be able to defend a disabled vehicle with their own weapon would be much better than one man doing it alone.
     
  21. 9MMare

    9MMare Member

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    I agree both people should be prepared. But as pointed out here, this in in NYC where (legal) gun ownership is very difficult. So it's good to have thought through other options as well.
     
  22. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    All I can say is that I pity those who live in those places and a pox on the politicians who would leave families defenseless when there are criminals wishing to victimize families.
    NYC is probably the best example of a place in which breaking their gun laws would have greater consequence than those criminals in the gang. I'd also say that it is one of the few places that wouldn't be forced to review the laws, given citizens using guns in righteous defense of their lives despite the law.
     
  23. cowtownup

    cowtownup Member

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    My wife and I discussed this and we determined that we would have stayed on the main freeeway and tried to keep moving as we called 911 and until the cops could arrive at our location. My main concern would have been for that of my wife and child. I am not sure drawing my gun and shooting would have been best for their safety, however if they are going to drag me out of the car, my weapon is on my side, who is not to say they won't use it against me. Tough choice for sure, especially under pressure. In the past when I've encountered large groups of bikers, I have gotten over and slowed down to allow them to get completely away and I will certainly continue to do so in the future. Its just not worth the risk to take on an angry mob... God forbid I encounter the situation this man did... Ya'll be safe...
     
  24. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Looks like the Stuntz blog was taken down. Too bad...I wanted to see what they had up.

    There is a major assumption or twelve to be made in answering the question of what I would do in such a situation. The first assumption is that I'm not the cause of the problem at the onset. Everything else flows from that.

    Calling 911 immediately would have been a priority, from the start of any accident or altercation.

    No way in Hades, with my wife and any child in the car, would I be deliberately sticking around, stopping, or otherwise doing something to allow people access to the vehicle and my family. A vehicle such as a car, truck, SUV, or whatever is a protective steel cage that I would use to the maximum extent possible to escape and defend ourselves with. As at least one biker found out, in a contest of physics between a man on a biker and a man in an SUV, the man on the bike loses. And it's a physics lesson I'd go to great lengths to demonstrate before I'd ever deliberately stop where my family could be hurt or killed.

    I'm definitely interested in seeing how this plays out in the courts. But for the moment, I'm both rolling my eyes and laughing at the stupid comments people like Dayana Mieses are making, like “This man needs to know he hurt someone,” said she said of Lien.

    If one slings violence around, one should not be surprised when a violent response is returned.


    Even for insulting words or gestures, there is no call for this kind of violent altercation at all.
     
  25. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    Looks like a flash motorcycle mob got out of hand...

    From Aug. 19, 2012

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X98eBeR9BIY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeTxk264EMM

    Visually it looks like an outing of Ruff Ryders without the charity and good works...

    http://mdruffryders.com/index.html

    http://www.ruffrydersfl.com/newsite/?page_id=4

    What's on the video isn't a MC in the normal sense. It flies no colors. It's a mix of ages and ethnicity. Different riders join them on the route. Maybe in response to a text that says a rider was hit and run. Looks more like a flash mob and acts like one. Potentially more dangerous than an MC because it has no leadership structure, no one to say "enough, out of here!".

    Not a single shot needed to be fired to get out of that mess. You have a much more powerful and versatile weapon under your butt. How does the Highway Patrol stop traffic on the Freeway? Do that along with what else has been mentioned. The cops will arrive quick.

    tipoc
     
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