How would you know whos the bad guy?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aftermath

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Messages
15
Location
Wichita, Kansas
Something anti ccw people seem to use as a point against carry is that if you end up using your weapon on an attacker, police responding are not going to know that you are the "good guy".

I am all for constitutional open and conceal carry but I am wondering how the "good guy" and "bad guy" can be determined by someone who did not see the whole incident.

Of course unlikely, but say a bad guy begins firing on others around you and you shoot him: what will another ccw guy do if he did not see the original shooter (bad guy) and he looks and sees you firing? What about a policeman arriving at the scene?

What about you guys that carry here? If you hear gunfire and run for cover ( hearing the shots not seeing it happen ) and then someone nearby begins firing, how would you know that is not the same presumably bad guy or his accomplice?

Don't think I am against the rkba but I am curious of peoples thoughts on this.
 
That is a real problem. Its something for all CCW holders to consider.

Where this has happened with tragic results is among LEO's. There have been a number is incidents where uniformed officers have shot and killed undercover or off duty officers not knowing who they were and only seeing a man with a gun. I honestly don't really see any real solution to that.

For civilian CCW I think one solution is to be VERY VERY careful about using your gun. IF you can get away without using it that is, of course, by far the best course of action. It’s NOT a civilian CCW holder's job to engage an active shooter, just to get away.

Fortunately it’s very rare for a CCW holder to get into a shooting and when it does happen it usually seems to be in a business while it’s being robbed and is over in seconds, long before anyone else with guns show up.

The reality is no one really wants to get into a gunfight and if one starts people will get the hell out of dodge regardless if they are armed or not IF they can. So the CCW is really for when there is just no other way of saving YOUR life.
 
Last edited:
The guy shooting at ME is the bad guy. If people around me are shooting at each other, I'm out of it.
 
Diggers and Losov have your answer pretty well nailed.

You aren't a sworn law officer. You aren't a ... ahem ... "SheepDog."

If someone is threatening YOU with violence, you can proceed with escape and/or defense.

If someone is acting in a violent manner in your presence, but not with you as their target, you need to concern yourself with getting you and your loved ones out of harm's way. You don't have the training, the DUTY, or the authority to try and sort out a drug deal gone bad, a domestic disturbance turned violent, an undercover police operation, or (even thought it is painful to accept) a violent crime in progress. Your sidearm is for last-ditch defense of your life and those of your loved ones.

If you are contemplating an "active shooter" scenario in a public place, and want to consider how to respond in the one-in-a-billion chance you ever witness such, the answer is still largely the same: get you and yours out of harm's way. IF you do that and still find yourself in a position of needing to or being able to stop the violent events in progress, simple observation of behavior will tell you all you need to know to act -- or not.
 
AND

If you are ever presenting a weapon for ANY reason and hear the command "DROP THE GUN"

DO NOT TURN TOWARD THAT COMMAND,as you stand a very good chance of getting shot.

I too do not want to DROP ANY GUN<but when commanded I will have to believe that I am ABOUT TO BE SHOT ,if I do not follow that command.

I was LEO and I do not want to see a legal CCW person shot after taking action that we will believe was totally correct.

Train your brain,or do not draw that gun !!.
 
scaaty... there's a very good point! Good or bad guy, you hear that, chances are you are saving your life by dropping the gun... something to take into consideration, for sure!
 
This is an excellent point.

Well, in my CCW course they stressed the point that YOU DO NOT GET INVOLVED IF YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS, FROM THE START OF AN INCIDENT. They gave the example of a man wrestling with a old woman in an alley. The man had a gun. What do you do. Many folks said to draw and order the man to the ground and to disarm him. In the example, he's an undercover cop making a collar and the old woman is a felon.

Also, another good point, is that AFTER the incident and it is clear, the lawful CCW'er should reholster his weapon and wait for police. That's why it's important to have a good holster that's easy to reholster your weapon.
 
It shouldn't matter but how you present yourself is going to effect how others see you. If your pants are halfway down your butt, your are dressed like a hobo or you are dressed lke Neo (Matrix) and covered in piercings you will not automatically be seen as the "Good Guy."
Sorry, that's how it is. The same can be said for daily life.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've got to see the bad guy committing bad acts. Then I will decide what action to take. If a lunatic starts mowing people down in front of me, I plan to stop him. I'll take the risk with the other CCW folks and the cops who are likely minutes away from responding to something that will end in seconds.
 
Corporal K said:
I've got to see the bad guy committing bad acts....
How do you know it's a bad guy doing bad things?

You see a scruffy guy apparently beating up a woman. You shoot him. It turns out to have been an undercover cop arresting a hooker; and the hooker had a knife that you didn't see.

Yes, we want to help. But we need to be sure that we really understand what is going on.
 
You see a scruffy guy apparently beating up a woman.

Call 911, watch from a distance and if it seems to be escalating make your presence known but maintain an escape route and clean shooting positions.
 
How do you know it's a bad guy doing bad things?

Cmon
.... he followed that statement with:

Then I will decide what action to take. If a lunatic starts mowing people down in front of me, I plan to stop him.

Which I took to mean...if someone pulled a gun and randomly started shooting everyone standing in line as the cashier station at Walmart, the "bad person committing bad acts" would be pretty darn obvious. I believe the scenario he was describing is FAR DIFFERENT from your example of a cop arresting a hooker, and it being misidentified as a domestic abuse situation. Seeing someone randomly start shooting innocent people in a retail setting is a far cry different from happening across a possible domestic situation on the street some night, and I think most people would agree. Furthermore, involving yourself in a one on one fight you previously were not part of is never a good course of action, and neither is shooting the apparent aggressor in such a case, IMO.
 
Last edited:
Joseph Zamudio out in the Tucson, Arizona shooting seemed to figure out the guy holding the gun when he showed up wasn't the bad guy.


The decisions require well-developed social skills. The police often show up on the scene of some disturbance and it isn't clear who committed the crime, who's the victim and who's the aggressor. Sometimes it's both parties.

Detain or arrest everyone involved, gather facts and obervations from everyone who saw it, draw up charges, and let the prosecutor decide who gets stuck with what.


When guns are involved in a situation, do what you must so you don't get shot before the detain and arrest part happens.

If you're on the scene seeing something happen, see gun = shoot is not an appropriate response. Decisions are made considering the totality of the circumstances, not based on snapshot pictures of observation void of any context.
 
BullfrogKen said:
...The decisions require well-developed social skills. ...
Yes.

BullfrogKen said:
...If you're on the scene seeing something happen, see gun = shoot is not an appropriate response....
Yes

BullfrogKen said:
...IDecisions are made considering the totality of the circumstances, not based on snapshot pictures of observation void of any context.
And yes.
 
If your a complete idiot and have no idea whats going on around you and you carry a weapon then maybe you should rethink the whole ccw gig in the first place. when i got my permit it was clearly stated to me and i read that you the owner are responsible for all actions takin. If your just some hardcore hero who feels he has to be defining line between life and death then you should already know what to do. yes, some cops just work for a paycheck and shoot at the first things that moves but so do people in the armed forces and civilians. <Deleted> happens thats why it happened in the first place. If some one felt compelled to defend an innocent perons life and other gun owners are around and shoot you then chances are they have no idea what to do with a gun in the first place. look what happened to pat tillman, people get scared and <deleted> happens. its luck of the draw in society with this thread. point is, if your in the right shout it loud and clear that your appoinent is the threat. any thing else after that may it be in the hands of the lord. Dont be a hero unless beyound a shadow of a doubt that instinct compells you to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joseph Zamudio out in the Tucson, Arizona shooting seemed to figure out the guy holding the gun when he showed up wasn't the bad guy.

Well he did have a fairly easy decision in this regard. The event was in broad and bright daylight. Four or so people were dogpiled on top of another man who was struggling. Nobody was running from the person with the gun who wasn't shooting and who wasn't threatening anyone. Shots had not been fired in many seconds. Aside from seeing a cop there with a gun and not shooting the cop, Zamudio had a lot of information that indicated he had no reason to draw and fire his gun. That isn't the case as we know for many situations where the wrong people do get shot, mistaken for the being the bad guy.
 
Call 911, watch from a distance and if it seems to be escalating make your presence known but maintain an escape route and clean shooting positions.

Nope, I'm intervening. I may not do it armed but I'm not watching some guy beat up a woman. I've intervened in these types of situations twice in my life and in neither case did an undercover LEO pull a badge nor did I need a firearm.
 
Posted by leadcounsel: Well, in my CCW course they stressed the point that YOU DO NOT GET INVOLVED IF YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS, FROM THE START OF AN INCIDENT.
Yep.

You really do not want to stop a caretaker who is treating a person having a grand mal seizure, assist the perpetrator of a deadly attack, interfere with a person who is trying to disarm someone intent on suicide, muck up an arrest or drug bust, or intervene with a security guard performing his duty. Your action could result in death or injury to someone and in great liability, civil and/or criminal, to yourself.

Posted by Sam1911: You aren't a sworn law officer.
And therefore, you are not indemnified by the community. Any legal expenses incurred as a result of your actions will be borne by you; all civil liability will accrue to you.

Also, in many jurisdictions, lawful justification for the use of force, for the presentation of a weapon, and for the use of deadly force by sworn officers may not apply to civilians under all circumstances.

If one does have to shoot to defend oneself, his or her first priority is to ascertain that the danger no longer exists; his second is to get his firearm holstered very quickly, or if he is told to drop it, to do so immediately. Otherwise, he or does face a very real risk of being shot by first responders.

Regarding the question about other armed citizens, one can only hope that they have received indoctrination similar to that described by leadcounsel.

Posted by BullfrogKen: If you're on the scene seeing something happen, see gun = shoot is not an appropriate response. Decisions are made considering the totality of the circumstances, not based on snapshot pictures of observation void of any context.
Right. Nor is see scuffle = intervene appropriate.
 
I need to make a correction about Joe Zamudio and his recognition of the person with the gun as not being the shooter in Tucson. I watched this account which came a day or two later. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwT3v5OpSFQ

He was doing the Good Sam thing and responding to a crisis. He had been warned by another person that there was a shooter. He came around the corner and saw a person with a gun and yelled at the guy to drop the gun...without ever having drawn his own. In short, he was doing the Danny McKown thing, only unlike McKown, the person with the gun was a good guy who didn't then shoot him repeatedly. People told him that the person wasn't the shooter and he saw the shooter on the ground with people on top of him.
 
DNS - I'd hardly describe what happened that morning as a fairly easy decision.


Joe Zamudio did a great number of actions and made several tough decisions in a very short, compressed period of time. Since there's already an earlier thread in S&T from days after the incident about him where that's discussed, I invite specific discussion of Zamudio to occur there.


The takeaways still remain:
  • well-developed social skills (which you pretty much described);
  • make the decision based upon the context of the totality of the circumstances;
  • and see gun does not = shoot.
 
IMO I don't think a CCW means you have the right to go out & fight crime. If that's the soul reason a person gets a CCW, become a LEO.

A CCW is for mine & my loved ones protection should it be needed. As stated here already, just shouting from cover "Freeze, I have a weapon" will most likely de-fuse a situation without evening drawing your weapon. Sticking your nose where it doesn't belong is more than likely going to get you shot. Getting myself or my loved ones to cover is my #1 priority. Once under cover, I can then access the situation & decide if my weapon is even needed.

To go running into a "Shots fired" situation with your weapon drawn to play "Hero" without knowing the facts could get you shot. If your not shot, you should have your CCW stripped from you for life for not having an ounce of common sense & putting peoples lives in danger.

I believe a CCW is a persons Right but I also believe it's a privledge. If a person lacks common sense, I don't believe that person should be allowed to have a CCW. Too many people could get hurt because "Mr. Hero" comes running, gun drawn without knowing what the hell is going on.
 
Last edited:
Posted by K-Rod: To go running into a "Shots fired" situation with your weapon drawn to play "Hero" without knowing the facts could get you shot.
Shot, sued, or charged with a crime.

In one state that is generally considered "gun freindly" (castle doctrine, shall issue, provision for civil immunity), if a citizen intervenes on behalf of someone who had been committing a crime, he or she can be charged with committing a crime.

And here's the kicker: according to the state supreme court, he or she can be convicted even if he or she had no idea that the person had been committing a crime. That was a surprise to me, in that it would seem to strictly limit exclusions to what constitutes a knowing and willful act.
 
Last edited:
That is deffinitely a problem and a very important topic to discuss. I've thought about that often, and the one thing I think would help is to yell out, someone call the police, as loud and repetitive as you can. Finding some way to make others instantly aware of your intentions is a difficult thing to accomplish when a gun has been fired or drawn. In the state where I live, it is a very real consideration because a lot of people carry here. We don't have to have CCW permits, or open carry permits. No gun registration either. Here you can buy a gun from anyone without paper work, unless it's an FFL, and then carry it any way you want, and with few exceptions, any where you go. I wear in my bank, grocery store and every where not prohibited. Sometimes I conceal, and other times I wear open. But my most common manner of carry is open, I kind of feel it helps to identify me as a good guy. Nothing wrong with concealing, I just feel letting others know I'm carrying may reduce the apprehension about my intentions. I really don't really think there is an absolute solution to this grey area.
 
There are always 'what ifs'. It is impossible to train for all of them. Indeed, you are more likely to overthink it and hesitate, and get yourself killed.

Remember, the goal here is not to get to shoot someone. The goal here is to NOT GET SHOT. If you are behind cover, and someone else is shooting someone you don't know somewhere.....over there, I am not looking to jump in the fight, I am looking to get out of there any way I can. I DO NOT want to creep over to the fight to see if I can add myself into it if they were already doing just fine killing each other without me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top