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HSM 10MM: Cold Weather Testing

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Mr.Revolverguy, Dec 9, 2017.

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  1. Mr.Revolverguy

    Mr.Revolverguy Member

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    HSM has been assembling ammunition since 1968. Today they produce six brands of ammunition Hunting, Cowboy Action, Bear Load, Varmint, Pro Pistol and Self Defense. Today I will be cold weather testing Bear Load and Pro Pistol loads. I will shoot 6 rounds of this ammunition across the chronograph from two pistols Ruger Blackhawk 10mm and SR1911 10MM. The chronograph will be setup 3 yards down range. To test for accuracy these loads will be fired from a bench pistol rest at 25 yards.
    DSC00780.jpg

    I fired 6 rounds through the SR1911 and Ruger Blackhawk in 27 degree weather to find out how sensitive this ammunition is to cold weather. Part 2 will consist of firing the same loads with the same pistols in weather above 60 degree's. Stay Tuned for Part 2:
    DSC00785.jpg


    SR1911 Ruger 10MM Unboxing
    http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=5850

    SR1911 10MM Range Visit
    http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=5855

    Ruger Blackhawk 10MM Stainless Unboxing
    http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=5904

    Ruger Blackhawk 10MM Stainless RansomRest
    http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=5917

    SR1911 Ruger 10MM Chronograph Results 180gr HSM
    Group Size = 1.8' at 25yds -- Pistol Rest
    Lowest = 1069
    Highest = 1093
    Average = 1078
    Extreme Spread = 24
    Standard Deviation = 9

    SR1911 10MM Chronograph Results 200gr HSM
    Advertised Velocity = 1041 - 481 ft pounds.
    Lowest = 1015
    Highest = 1053
    Average = 1038
    Extreme Spread = 40
    Standard Deviation =14

    Ruger Blackhawk Stainless 10MM Chronograph 180gr HSM
    Lowest = 1116
    Highest = 1149
    Average = 1132
    Extreme Spread = 33
    Standard Deviation = 12

    Ruger Blackhawk Stainless 10MM Chronograph 200gr HSM
    Advertised Velocity = 1041 - 481 ft pounds.
    Group Size = 1.1' at 25yds -- Pistol Rest
    Lowest = 1070
    Highest = 1109
    Extreme Spread = 39
    Standard Deviation = 13

    The advertised velocity of the Bear Loads were pretty much the same as the results I achieved today. Which could lead one to believe that the cold had no effect at all on this ammunition, though I still plan to test these loads in warmer weather conditions.
     
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  2. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    Why bother? If I wanted that level of performance, I wouldn't have a 10mm. How do you call it a 10mm Auto "Bear Load" when it doesn't even obtain warm .40 S&W ballistics?

    If it doesn't get at least 600 ft/lbs at the muzzle, it's not 10mm, and it isn't going into my Glock 20. I shot thousands of rounds of the HSM cause it is all over here, in Missoula. Was told that it was hotter than that. Finally got some over the chronograph, and was so disappointed by the results that I haven't even been able to shoot the rest of the stuff I have up. I have no use for watered down crap made for limp wristed sissies. I'll continue to handload or go through established manufactures like Underwood and Doubletap that actually market real 10mm.
     
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  3. redbullitt

    redbullitt Member

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    Good to know they meet their advertised velocities, as I am sure you know many don't.

    They look like typical commercial loadings to me. At least they are honest on the box! I could see an application for a 180 @1100 FPS... maybe sometimes you dont want pedal to the metal and that is the only pistol you have. I have no doubt that loading would make a good carry round in town. Very manageable to shoot too if recoil is an issue. Variety! That is the strongest point for the 10mm in my book. Everyone gets hung up on the top end of most cartridges... Sure that is fun, but it is not always the proper tool for the job. Think framing vs finishing hammer! AND with these loads verified velocity, you would know where you stand and not worry if it is watered down even MORE like some other loadings.

    Thanks for the info and thorough breakdown OP! Good to know those cartridges run close to what they are advertised and they seem consistent enough as well.
     
  4. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    The problem is that this crap is the only stuff available from most manufactures. And it gets frustrating. If these companies also offered real 10mm Auto, and watered down garage was just an option, instead of the only commercially available option, it wouldn't be a problem. It could just be ignored. Instead, 30 years after the cartridge hit the market you still have almost no real ammo available because companies offer only this garbage and then say their is no commercial support for the 10mm because no one buys their watered down useless crap. Instead, there's no support for the 10mm Auto in the mainstream market because there is no real 10mm Auto in the mainstream market. They should offer full power 10mm. If they then decide they also want to offer the 10mm Lite stuff for the people who don't already have a .40 S&W, they can. But the cartridge is never going anywhere if we continue to have to handload for it or buy from a select few little companies in order to find real ammo for the it. As long as the least useful ammo for the cartridge is the only ammo supported by the mainstream market, the utility of the cartridge is hampered. I want real 10mm to be commercially viable and that is never going to happen as long as people continue to get away with labeling barely .40 S&W level ballistics a "Bear Load."
     
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  5. CaptHank

    CaptHank Member

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    That is why, I load my own. 15.0 GR. of AA-#9, will get your attention and everyone else on the range line.
     
  6. Mr.Revolverguy

    Mr.Revolverguy Member

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    For my handloads I like AA9 with 200gr lead and CFEPistol with 135gr JHP.

    Didn't mean to piss you off MTMilitiaman or rub salt in the wound but I do understand. :)
     
  7. HB

    HB Member

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    I like your videos, keep it up!
     
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  8. RecoilRob

    RecoilRob Member

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    Full power 10mm presents an interesting problem for the ammo manufacturers. Back when the cartridge was first made available almost all of the ammo being produced was full power stuff and at first everyone was delighted with it....until the guns started breaking. The FBI found their S&W's just weren't holding up to it along with the fact that most of the agents couldn't handle the recoil and accuracy results were plummeting. So they downloaded it to a level that seemed a good compromise both for gun longevity and shooter usability. And thus the 40 S&W was born.

    My full-squat 10mm loads run 180 Sierra's over 1250 and are getting toward the nasty end of shoot-ability with lots of muzzle flash/blast and recoil. Most who have tried them in the Delta Elite don't like shooting them at all....beyond the 'Wow!' factor as hitting anything becomes difficult after the first couple shots. So I can understand that a Company might want to tame them down a bit trying to avoid lawsuits from damaged guns and people not wanting to shoot them due to them being nasty.
     
  9. harrygunner

    harrygunner Member

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  10. RecoilRob

    RecoilRob Member

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    That was an interesting read from actual Agents involved with the guns at the time. But I wasn't quoting 'Internet Hooey'.....what I mentioned was what EVERYONE was told back when it actually was happening. Having one of the early 10mm's I was very keen to read all I could find on it....remember this is 'pre-internet days', and I'd imagine that some amount of testing had to have been done to make the determination that the full power 10's were more than they wanted...for whatever reason. At the time...it was widely reported that the guns were having problems, the agents were having problems shooting them and this led to the 10mm Lite and then 40 S&W. At that same time I was competing in IPSC and using a version of 10mm that made Major but was FAR from full power for the very same reasons that we were being told the FBI was going to the downloaded round. Full power 10's are HARD to shoot fast and well in a Colt carry gun without compensator.

    And...being as we love to argue here (kidding!) who is to say there isn't a wee bit of 'Revisionist History' being perpetrated by fellows over on the S&W forum? Being fanboys...they wouldn't be biased in how they remember things going down...could they? At the time I had a 1006 and it ran well, though I didn't put all that many rounds through it as it was too big to carry in Florida. All I can say is what I heard and read...at the time. If everything was all a lie...well, shame on them for lying to us all.
     
  11. FN in MT

    FN in MT Member

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    I've visited HSM a few times...Talk about TONS of components in their shop! And I mean hundreds of tons. Our Range used to occasionally sell them our bulk range brass.

    It's an interesting operation. Saw mostly Dillon 1050's loading the pistol and small rifle cartridges. All the operators listening to music on i pods. LOL.

    Nice folks that run it too.

    FN in MT
     
  12. harrygunner

    harrygunner Member

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    Training total novices is a nice change. I tell them there will be recoil, but it will not hurt you. That statement and their lack of assumptions about recoil have them shooting quite well. After a session with 9mm, I had a 90# (no joke) woman in her late fifties shoot my 10mm 1911. Not only did she not mention recoil, she shot groups better than most of the others at the range.

    I know it won't happen, but it would be better IMO if hyperbolic Internet statements about the 10mm went away. It's a great round and exaggerations by a few keep some from giving it a shot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  13. Delford

    Delford Member

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    Back when I was a mere youth I really wanted a Glock 20. Being in my 20s and fairly poor I never bought any firearm. Fast forward to age 62. Friends suggested I take a CC class and I did. My first gun was .45 ACP because it fit me. I've now shot the G20 as well as G17, 19, 22, 23, 27, and 30. The 20 was fun to shoot but no longer something I care to own. Both my .45s are fun to shoot, not Glocks, accurate, and capable of being concealed (see avatar). 10mm has again become a viable option due to many choices from gunmakers and that's a good thing.
     
  14. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    I don't have any qualms with HSM as a company or with supporting the local economy. The quality and the consistency of the rounds and their accuracy has been fine--nothing to complain about there.

    There was more of a legitimate market for the "10mm Lite," and "FBI-Load," stuff before the .40 S&W. The success of the .40 in the police and civilian defense markets should have made it abundantly clear that anyone who wanted that level of ballistic performance would go for the cheaper, more available option. Duplicating those ballistics in the post-.40 S&W marketplace is ridiculous. The 10mm is quite popular in Western MT. I know at least half a dozen different people who carry one on a regular basis. Every single one of us uses full power ammunition for carry and practice. So if Remington or Hornady or HSM or anyone else has problems selling 10mm Auto, it's not because there is no market for 10mm Auto, it is because they haven't engaged that market.
    People always talk about the recoil. I've seen a 15 year old girl bounce an empty 20 oz Coke bottle across a makeshift range with my Gen III G20 and full power Double Tap 180 gr FMJ Match at 1250 fps. I have no doubt a lot of it comes to the make and model of gun being used, ammunition, and a good deal of subjection. For sure it lets you know you've touched something off, but the Glock seems to handle and distribute recoil very well. You're probably not going to get the .12 sec splits with the 10mm that you may come to expect from your 9mm, so if that is all that concerns you, stick with your 9mm. Again, not bashing the 9mm here either. It's like complaining about the weight of a battle rifle--those who carry battle rifles are aware of the weight and carry them despite this specifically because they are not poodle shooters and they offer something to the individual that justifies an increase in weight. Those of us who carry full power 10mm are aware of the increase in recoil but work around it, so to speak, because the cartridges offers advantages in performance that to us make the increase in recoil worth it. But again, that is not the debate I am here to discuss.
    My point is that the 10mm Auto never acquired the commercial support other cartridges did. It has no illustrious military career nor any multi-million dollar company logo attached to it. In fact, the cartridge is, by most accounts, supposed to be long dead. It maintains enough of a loyal following to not only survive, but prosper, but it will probably realistically never thrive on a mainstream level. The 10mm's survival is directly linked to its performance. In it's true, full power loadings it offers the energy of full power .357 Magnum with bigger and heavier bullets and usually with a substantial boost in capacity over a typical revolver. As such, the 10mm Auto is in a very big way those most firepower the average person has any hope of mastering with dedication in a package small enough to carry and even conceal. It's survival and resurgence as of late is directly linked to this key fact. The .357 Magnum would have never achieved a lick of popularity if everyone just poo-pooed the recoil and downloaded it to .38 Special levels for acceptance by the masses. We ask for the same opportunity and chance at long-term success that everyone else got--real ammo loaded to cartridge potential and demonstrative of the capabilities of the platform available on the mainstream market by mainstream manufactures. And I feel it is my duty as a fan of this cartridge deeply invested in survival in multiple ways to vigorously take every opportunity to remind you that in a world of regurgitated, watered-down, mass-produced crap, some of us demand more. We are 10mm Auto shooters and we want real support in the marketplace. Give us REAL 10mm!
     
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  15. Pelo801

    Pelo801 Member

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    MTMilitiaman, I agree with you to a certain level but also feel your pain and understand your frustration. And of course theres always the guy that chimes in with the "just take up reloading". But I know it isnt for everyone.

    But when I entered the 10mm world, I went in knowing it was going to be in the same vein as a 44 spcl or 45 colt. Its a "reloaders cartridge". The same week I got my first 10mm, I also bought a set of dies. Its just where the 10mm is right now.

    On the forums and in my personal circle, I have seen an increase in interest in the 10mm. Some manufacturers (Ruger for one) have added a few 10mm pistols to the list. A few ammo manufacturers have added it to their line as well. So I believe there is hope for what you wish to come about eventually, sooner than later.
     
  16. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Actually, I think you will find that manufacturers offer .357 ammo at a variety of power levels. Moreover, many (probably most) owners of .357 wheelguns shoot more .38 special than full-powered ammo out of them. That would be analogous to shooting .40 out of a 10mm, except that due to the semi's headspacing on the case mouth rather than a rim, the owner of a 10mm doesn't really have that option (it can be done, but is not ideal and potentially harmful).

    There is absolutely no downside to manufacturers offering the full spectrum of power in 10mm cases. In fact, the flexibility of the cartridge is a really strong point in its favor. It can offer an 85 grain spread between relatively common bullet weights (135 to 220, with about 6 common stops in between). It can be, as you correctly put it, about the most powerful round that non-exceptional shooters can learn to handle at some speed - or it can be a plinker.

    It is the semi-auto equivalent of the .357 - a gun that can do, if not everything, a huge variety of things, with only the very low and very high end of the power/recoil spectrum absent. It's not a bad thing for the future of the round for non-handloaders to be able to buy a 10mm, buy some full-house stuff, but still be able to crank through a larger volume of watered-down practice/plinking/fun ammo without getting tendinitis or developing a flinch.
     
  17. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Interesting. I'm glad I read this; thanks for posting.

    I carry HSM Bear loads in Redhawk 44. I wonder if I should be looking at their specs more closely and comparing that to published hand load data. Perhaps they're doing the same thing with other calibers.

    I agree with you though, HSM makes good quality, consistent, "accurate enough" ammo.
     
  18. Mr.Revolverguy

    Mr.Revolverguy Member

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    DB Cooper I have heard their 44mag loads are much hotter and respectable for carrying the Bear Load name. This is the reason why I like the testing and doing the video's, it is about informing in an unbiasd way and letting the buyer make a choice. I do not have any of their 44Mag to test.
     
  19. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Yeah. I think you may be right. I google searched for "44 magnum load data," and looked at several sites, each with multiple loads listed. What I saw was the highest velocity 300-310 grn loads were used H110 at 1200+ fps, and that roughly matches HSM's published data. What is unclear is barrel lengths and energy.

    But, at this point, I'm hijacking your 10mm thread. Apologies.
     
  20. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    Right. Only 10mm Auto shooters have to beg for full power ammo. Literally every other cartridge on the planet enjoys representation in the mainstream market. But you have a better chance finding full power ammo for a .44-40 or a .700 Nitro Express in the mainstream market than you do for the 10mm Auto. I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with this so-called "Bear Load" if it wasn't typical of the market. If there was full power ammo available for the 10mm from major manufactures. If this cartridge enjoyed the same chance at success every single other cartridge in existence has gotten, then sure, load your 10mm however you want. If I could go down to any of my local FFL dealers and find full power 10mm Auto from Remington, Winchester, and Hornady, no issue with your water-down crap "Bear Load." But you can't because the 10mm Auto is the only cartridge that has lacked representation in the marketplace to this level. And it sucks...

    Though on that note, DB Cooper, I wouldn't worry about the .44 loads as much. As noted, problems finding full power ammo seem to be exclusively limited to the 10mm Auto to a degree that is uniquely frustrating.
     
  21. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Well, I think part of why a lot of the big ammo manufacturers take a step or two back from true max 10mm loads is that there are a LOT of 10mm firearms out there that will get beat up in a hurry by a steady diet of the full-house stuff.

    I also think that expectations got set with the original Norma 200 grain loadings that were first measured with copper crush pressure methods. I strongly suspect when those were re-tested with piezzo electric transducers, which are better at detecting true peak pressures that are brief in duration, they were revealed to be over-pressure rounds... which may be why Norma no longer offers them.
     
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  22. BigBore44

    BigBore44 Member

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    When I first started really getting serious about firearms I invested quite a bit of money in factory ammo. Then I discovered reloading. Pretty much all
    factory ammo is anemic (45-70 is beyond anemic) The ammo that isn’t, it’s pretty expensive compared to what I can reload for the same (or better) quality/performance. I’m fine with the 10mm not being a highly touted cartridge. As long as I have brass, (I have plenty) I’ll be able to shoot my full power loads (or most accurate) with the bullet/brass/powder of my choice, specifically tailored for my gun, for much less than factory ammo prices.
     
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  23. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    Why do people make excuses? True, first generation 10mms had a reputation for beating themselves apart. But this can be said of any number of different rounds. The .45 Colt for example, or the .45-70 Gov; both old rounds with modern loads that would damage or destroy original firearms. Guess what, you can not only buy ammo that matches original specs for those cartridges, you can even find more powerful ammo labeled for use only in more modern firearms.

    And the original loads? Actually exceeded with modern powders. You can get on Youtube and see people shooting Double Tap and Underwood 200 gr loads at a legit 1250 fps, 180 gr loads at 1300 fps, all the way down to 135 gr loads at 1600 fps. Double Tap is a SAAMI participant too, so when they market a 200 gr XTP @ 1250 fps you know it safely reaches these velocities without exceeding established industry parameters, like 37,500 PSI. Mike McNett founded Double Tap Ammunition on his 10mm Auto offerings. He was just a handloader with a garage. But he saw what these major ammunition companies ignored--that there is a significant demand for full power 10mm--and now it makes a good living trying to load enough full power 10mm Auto to satisfy demand while expanding his product line to include dozens of others cartridges now. But it all started because, yes, there is a demand for high quality full power ammunition. So much so that other companies have seen and taken note, see also Underwood, Grizzly Cartridge, Buffalo Bore, and others. These guys wouldn't be able to start an entire cottage industry right under the nose's of these major ammunition manufacture if there was no demand for full power 10mm Auto. So again, I ask, "why do people make excuses?"

    There is no logical reason why major ammunition companies should not be offering full power ammo for this cartridge. Let us decide whether the increase performance is worth the increase in recoil and decrease in the service life of our handguns, like we do with every other cartridge, stop making excuses, stop treating this cartridge like it is different than every other cartridge in human existence, and offer full power 10mm Auto ammo. It's pretty simple.
     
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