hunting damage to animals

[Bezoar]

i have my 223 bolt action rifle, ACCURATE i say.

loads pondering

remington hoghammer 223 with 62 grain tsx
federal fusion 62 grain jacketed bullet

they both group well, the federal load is the better of the two, the problem is this, its for whitetail. and i am concerned in the expansion and penetration departments.

both are more then accurate for a head or neck shot BUT heres the problems i have to consider.

1. if i shoot it in the head, is the poor animals head going to explode like a watermelon getting hit with a 12 guage slug?

2. is the fusion round going to shed lead all through the neck or chest cavity on a hit?

3. meat damage if i hit it through the shoulder?
4. if i do a shoulder hit, is it going to go out the other side?

 

[Sniper66]

Hard to say. In Kansas it is not permitted to shoot deer with a .223. But, I've shot coyotes with 223 with 40 and 50 gr bullets. Both Sierra BKs and did the job nicely. Neither exploded a head and the one I hit with a 40gr in the neck went down like he was hit with a sledge hammer. Another was hit in the chest and no exit wound. I didn't open him up to see the internal carnage. If you want to protect the meat and you have a fairly sure shot to the head, why not take it? I hit a running coyote in the back hip with a very fast 40gr and it tore the leg up pretty badly. Took a second shot to put him down.

 

[Gunnerboy]

The head wont explode... unless this is a pygmy deer we are talking about, Possible lead deposits, but never know bullets tend to have a mind of there own. Should only be about a silver dollar sized meat waste/damage to the shoulder area with 223. My 6.5x55 swede just pokes a hole in the shoulder breaks it and does the same on the other side, So i would expect similar in the 223.

 

[elkhunterCO]

I wouldn't recommend trying to shoot a deer in the head or shoulder with a 223. Not saying that it won't kill them but..

A deer head is pretty small and moves a lot. I've seen guys shoot deer in the head, I've seen jaws get blown off, antlers blown off, deer run off... can't say I ever saw anything like a watermelon explosion.

Now to the shoulder, a 223 in the shoulder has a good chance to come apart with minimal penetration when it hits the bone. After you track the animal for half a day, you might find it you might not, and will likely have lead fragments in the meat.

I always try to shoot it just behind the shoulder, not in the stomach, but just slightly behind and below the shoulder, the bullet will likely go completely through as it only has ribcage and organs to go through.

These are just some things I have seen first hand with big mule deer, not an expert on whitetails (though with even larger calibers, 223 is too small legally in Colorado)

 

[illinoisburt]

Head shots are definitely not a good choice. Same goes with neck shots using small caliber rifles. The lethal targets (brain, spine and juglular) are actually quite small and constantly moving around. A near miss with a 223 is likely simply to maim, requiring a long chase and follow-up shots. We dealt with a cull program in our local forest preserves that used 223's for 165 deer. Hits center of chest behind the point of the elbow of the shoulder (classic archery heart/lung shot) were universally effective, though most all of the deer had to be trailed a short distance. High shoulder shots did not work well with many running/falling and requiring follow-up shots. Neck shots and a few head shots taken where poor as well. Granted the ammunition used was not a good hunting round like the fusion and tsx, but would expect similar results. If it was me I would stick to the heart/lung shot, but YMMV.

 

[scottbird]

I agree with elkhunter, the 223 is a good round with plenty of power to kill a deer, a good heart and lung shot would be the best. one thing to remember is that those small caibers when the hit bone tend to tumble. I shot a 6 point two years ago with a friends 223 with 95gr hornady hpbt in the lungs, it hit a rib and we found part of the bullet in the left ham. that is one reason the US. military uses this round. I would not try to lead you to another caliber, just keep that in mind.

 

[d2wing]

I pretty much agree with Elk hunter. I have not used those bullets but I have shot a few with the .223. All were one shot kills to the heart lung area. I use 55 grain PSP bullets and they work well, they turn the lungs to mush and the deer die quickly. I would not expect an exit wound. I am not sure how a shoulder shot would work with the .223. It would depend on bullet construction. Neck and head shots are poor choices.

 

[WestKentucky]

I can offer my experience with explosive expansion projectiles as I feel like these may be. I shot my first 5 deer with a .256 winchester magnum. The factory loaded hollow point basically detonated at about 2" and left a mass about the size of a grapefruit that was indistinguishable, unidentifiable mush. The lead fragments could be anywhere within about a 8 inch radius of that central point where it seemed to detonate. That round was quite impressive for its small size, light bullet, and extreme bullet design. I now have moved on to 30-30, .270, .44, 357, and 7-30waters for my deer getting escapades. Up close where the bullet will work it's truly impressive. Past 75 yards it was very ineffective.
If you decide to use these rounds on a deer, hit broadside chest or straight on breast shot only. No through the shoulder, quartering, etc. Put as little real estate between POI and critical body parts as possible and keep your range limited.

 

[BigBore45]

Hard to say. In Kansas it is not permitted to shoot deer with a .223. But, I've shot coyotes with 223 with 40 and 50 gr bullets. Both Sierra BKs and did the job nicely. Neither exploded a head and the one I hit with a 40gr in the neck went down like he was hit with a sledge hammer. Another was hit in the chest and no exit wound. I didn't open him up to see the internal carnage. If you want to protect the meat and you have a fairly sure shot to the head, why not take it? I hit a running coyote in the back hip with a very fast 40gr and it tore the leg up pretty badly. Took a second shot to put him down.

you are wrong you can now use any center fire cartridge in Kansas this was changed in 2013 due to the argument that assult rifles were not hunting rifles. I however would not use a .223 unless i had no other gun that was more suitable for the task.

information from kdwpt.
FIREARMS
Centerfire rifles and handguns that are not fully automatic, while using only hard-cast solid lead, soft point, hollow point, or other expanding bullets; shotguns using only slugs. Any person who lawfully possesses a firearm suppressing device may use that device in conjunction with lawful hunting, fishing, and furharvesting.

 

[BigBore45]

I would not hunt a deer with a .223 as range is limited and it is not going to stop it in its tracks. If that is all you have go for a heavy soft point as fast as you can find or load it. A head shot is a good idea as long as you do not miss (very hard shot to make). i would urge you to use a different caliber though. i have shot deer with a .223 and it was a clean heart and lung shot with a 60 grain soft point. it killed the deer as it only ran about 20 yards before it stopped and fell over. that was a medium sized doe, i would be hesitant for a clean kill on a large buck if shot placement is not perfect.

 

[GooseGestapo]

You're over-thinking it.
Either of the two bullets you mention and most any 55gr or heavier soft-point bullet from the .223 will do the trick on deer.

A heart-lung shot isn't as quick and drammatic as a head shot, but will work. A "shoulder" hit to the spine or a base of the neck is my favorite as deer can "move" while you are pulling the trigger and bullet is in flight to target.

I've killed deer with head shots, but typically only when they are very close and I've "gotten their attention" so that that they are "posing" for the shot, looking at me.
A "whistle" will usually do this.

I've killed over 100 deer between the .22Hornet, .222,.223, and .22-250.
IMO there is little difference between them and the .243 IF and only IF you use a soft-point bullet 55gr or heavier. (45gr spt in Hornet).

The bad reputation of the .22cf's has come from FMJ or light frangible varmint bullets.

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

My two favorite bullets are the 60gr Hornady PtSpt and the 63gr Sierra SMPT, followed closely by the 65gr GameKing.

Of course, the 1/14" twist .22-250's don't shoot the 65gr GameKings acceptably, but even my 1/12" Rem. Mod-7 with an 18.5" bbl shoots them MOA at ~2,800fps.

 

[MtnCreek]

If you handload, check out the Speer 70gr SP.

 

[scottbird]

I just wonder why people have to over kill every animal on the face of the earth. I ask this, if a 223 will stop a man at 500yds with one shot, why wont it kill a deer? the 223 has plenty of power. if you do a chest shot on a man, the breast bone is much tougher than any deer ribcage, so just wondering where the problem is?

keep shooting your 223, it will take deer about as far as you can shoot, out to about 4ooyds, do not pay attention to the negativity and have fun.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

1. if i shoot it in the head, is the poor animals head going to explode like a watermelon getting hit with a 12 guage slug?

No.
I've seen head shot deer with a 7mm STW and it didn't explode it like a watermelon, so I doubt your .223 will.
However if you're off by only a few inches you may blow its lower jaw off leaving it to suffer for days before finally starving to death. That is actually a very real possibility, as I have heard of it many times and seen it firsthand once.

3. meat damage if i hit it through the shoulder?

Yes.
If you hit an animal in the shoulder it is going to damage meat. The plus is they don't run as far. I don't mind losing a little bit of meat for them to fall right there, as they most often do when shot through the shoulders with my '06.

4. if i do a shoulder hit, is it going to go out the other side?

Maybe, maybe not.
I've seen bullets do crazy things that I can't explain.
Most of the time, yes there's an exit wound, but not always.

I know you have a .223 but if you are going to hunt deer with it, pick a good bullet (both you mentioned are fine) and put it behind the shoulder, or in the shoulder.

Forget about head shots unless range is very close. The likelyhood of wounding a deer and it suffering are much greater than most people think.

 

[Bezoar]

ive been checking out teh hog hammer its ipressive. it does wonders on hogs and the deer ive seen photos of. and were talking 150 yard shots on both.

seen dramatic variation in wounds from the federal round. sometimes simple caliber entrance and exit holes. other times grape fruit sized exit holes. and ive seen exit holes you could dribble a baseball through from 55 grain varmit rounds at shorter ranges.
its wierd, when we talk about shooting the head on a prairie dog at 400 yards, a .223 is IDEAL. but a deer head or neck at a nominal 60 yeards its suddenly impossible.

 

[elkhunterCO]

definitely not impossible, just not advisable in my opinion.

 

[d2wing]

A heart shot is always fatal. Brain shots all too often are not on deer. In a deers head the brain is small by comparison and protected by bones and depending on angle, antler. Most people cannot tell just where the brain is. There is much more non fatal area than fatal. Nobody worries about a lost prairie dog. If a varmit bullet hits a prairie dog in the head or body there isn't going to be anything left but blood and a patch of hide. On the other hand if you can set up a varmit rifle and wait for a deer to pop it's head up out of a hole, more power to you.

 

[jmr40]

You are over thinking this. A 223 loaded with non-varmint bullets is more than adequate for any deer on the planet. Load varmint bullets in a 30-06 and it will fail too.

Either of the bullets you are considering will work just fine. Put one in the lungs and have a sharp knife.

I would not hunt a deer with a .223 as range is limited and it is not going to stop it in its tracks.

Half right.

With most cartridges the useful range is limited by our ability to make hits. With most rounds if you are good enough to make a hit, the round will kill it. The 223 is one of those rounds that is capable of making hits at well over 500 yards. But loses speed and energy long before that. I'd have no issues with a 223 at 200 yards and under.

Some folks have no problem hunting with archery, shotguns, handguns and muzzle loaders at limited ranges. Yet a 223, which is more effective at the same ranges, is looked down on.

But when used within its limitations the small fast bullets tend to put deer sized game down much faster than bigger rounds.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

we talk about shooting the head on a prairie dog at 400 yards, a .223 is IDEAL. but a deer head or neck at a nominal 60 yeards its suddenly impossible.

I don't give a rat's derriere about prairie dogs.
And you can say whatever you want, but I've searched for a deer for hours that was running around with it's face blown off by a guy who shot it in the head with a .243 Win. The margin for error is larger than people think.

If you miss your shot on a deer's head by 3 inches, you can blow off it's lower jaw.
If you miss your spot behind the shoulder by 3 inches the deer still dies fairly quickly (assuming you didn't aim too far back in the first place and gut shoot it).

Of course it's not impossible. I've saw it done at very long range (560 yards). I wouldn't have believed it but the guy is not only the best shot I've ever seen, but has a custom 7mm STW and a Burris Illuminator that laser ranges the deer and a light comes on in the scope showing you where to hold.
I still don't think it's a good idea. But you are all adults and are free to disagree with me and do it your way. But I'll keep putting them in the pump station unless they are very close (inside 50 yds).

 

[elkhunterCO]

we talk about shooting the head on a prairie dog at 400 yards, a .223 is IDEAL. but a deer head or neck at a nominal 60 yeards its suddenly impossible




not too sure if a 223 is ideal for much of anything at 400 yards

 

[trigga]

i first started using the hornady 55 gr tap. after reading about it, i thought it might frag upon impact with the skin and not get the penetration in need to reach the vitals. first deer i got was a yearling old enough to lose all his spots. it was lying down when i shot it. penetrated all the way through. the next season i also got two more does both full grown and later in november. The round penetrated about an inch or so and fragmented causing a heart/lungs to be jello like and massive internal bleeding. it was pretty much black. both still ran about 25 yards then dropped dead. i was surprised they were able to run after inspecting all the damage. the round never penetrated all the way although the heart was pretty much gone. we almost didn't find the deer because there was no blood trail but judging by the position of the deer it died while in full flight.

i later switched to remington 55gr psp. killed at least 3 deers with it. two of them dead in their tracks. and yes, total penetration and somewhat good exit wound. i haven't been out much due to college and all but this year i'm using my newly built 300 blackout and am in the same boat as you. i reload so i have somewhat of a knowledge of what people use and have worked (like on hogs).

one thing to consider is the expansion, penetration and the animal hide.

 

[trigga]

the hoghammer looks like something for thick hide game (hogs), be careful of over penetration as it only leads to energy not being transfered to the target (wasted energy).

the federal fusion looks like something i would use again if .223 was my only caliber. again shot placement is key, i would not risk a neck shot. i always go for the vitals like the heart or a double lung

 

[Arkansas Paul]

first deer i got was a yearling old enough to lose all his spots. it was lying down when i shot it. penetrated all the way through. the next season i also got two more does both full grown and later in november. The round penetrated about an inch or so and fragmented causing a heart/lungs to be jello like and massive internal bleeding. it was pretty much black. both still ran about 25 yards then dropped dead. i was surprised they were able to run after inspecting all the damage. the round never penetrated all the way although the heart was pretty much gone. we almost didn't find the deer because there was no blood trail but judging by the position of the deer it died while in full flight.

I had much the same experience when my daughter killed her first deer.
She shot it with a .223 and a Seierra Gameking BTHP bullet. Didn't exit but the doe didn't run far. No blood trail though, so good thing she died quick.
Insides looked like they went through a blender.

I'll load up some Nosler Partitions next time.

 

[jmorris]

I wouldn't ever put "hog hammer" and 62 grain in the same sentence but I wouldn't expect a lot of meat damage with a shoulder hit.

 

[Davek1977]

theres a world of difference between a prairire dog's head at 400 yards and a deer's at 60. For one, most people aren't the least bit concerned if they make a less than ideal shot on a prairie dog, where the same person may find wounding a deer a traumatic ordeal. Too, a head hit on a priaire dog is going to kill it instantly, where you stand a good chance of simply wounding a deer by blowing its jaw off or failing to hit the brain or neck. Long story short, the .223 will work for deer within reasonable ranges, and most people advise AGAINST head shots onn deer as a general principal. When there are far more humane shots to take, a head shot is silly and an unnecessary risk, and one no deer hunter I know would take barring a survival situation. To compare a 400 yard prairie dog's head to a 60 yard deer heashot is naive and shows a fundamental lack of understanding on many levels, IMO