I almost was worried there...

[BlayGlock]

for a moment when I was looking at Wilson Combat's M4. I have been shopping for a AR-15 but I know almost nothing about them. I have been wanting one for informal target shooting and to carry in the truck. Maybe one day shooting 3 gun with.

Wilson Combat only guarantees 2 MOA at 100 yards yet they want $2K for their gun. I thought holy cow, am I going to have to spend a mint to get an 1 MOA AR?? Then I went and looked ar Rock River Arms and they guarantee 1 MOA for $1K.

The reason that I looked at Wilson in the first place is that I have experience with their 1911s. I am a 1911 fanboy and generally in my opinion you get what you pay for. I have several $2K plus 1911s and they were worth it IMO.

Now the question I have is, are ARs' generally the same way? Is there a certain price point of diminishing returns, especially for someone who is not going to be in any kind of long range precision rifle competitions?

The only way I know to compare is this. You can get a Springfield TRP for say $1300. It is a great gun and will meet most people's needs for plinking and some IDPA, but a skilled marksman with a better gun can shoot tighter groups if the gun were capable. However, you can spend another $400-$500 and get a Les Baer TRS. These are hand fit guns that will outshoot just about anybody. And yes I can and have outshot a TRP with a Les Baer at 25 yards. Then you add another $400-$500 and you can get a gun like my Guncrafter No Name. Hand fit well made gun, cannot really outshoot a Les Baer with it but it is definitely more refined and has a better fit and finish to it and I prefer the No Name over the TRS because of those things.

Do ARs kind of work that way? In your opinion what is the point of diminishing returns on an AR?

FWIW I know that I want one with a 16" barrel. I am currently leaning towards a Daniel Defense or Rock River but I will spend the money on something like a Noveske if I am gonna to get better accuracy out of it. Per my illustration I am looking for the Les Baer TRS on the AR world.

 

[MCMXI]

Wilson Combat only guarantees 2 MOA at 100 yards yet they want $2K for their gun. I thought holy cow, am I going to have to spend a mint to get an 1 MOA AR?? Then I went and looked ar Rock River Arms and they guarantee 1 MOA for $1K.

The UT-15 has a 1 MOA guarantee .... if that's important to you. WC doesn't mention the ammunition used as far as I can tell. 2 MOA with XM195 is about the norm for any decent AR15. I have ARs that will shoot in the .4's at 100 yards with my reloads and easily under 1" with Black Hills but won't group better than 1.5" with XM195 (best group).

In your opinion what is the point of diminishing returns on an AR?

Very good question for any firearm or optic for that matter. I'm in the camp that believes that any decent AR is good enough for most people particularly if you make the effort to optimize the buffer, buffer spring and magazines. My $1,000 DPMS/BM hybrid runs just as well as my $2,000 POF P415 but the POF has some very nice features that make it worth the cost to me.

 

[MCMXI]

OK ... I found some information from Wilson's FAQ re their accuracy guarantees ...

Do you have an accuracy guarantee?

Rifles:
1 MOA or 2 MOA accuracy guarantees are based on the rifle's ability to place 3 consecutive shots (center to center) into the guaranteed group size from a distance of 100 yards when fired from a double sandbag rest by at least one of the following ammunition types (calm day with no wind).

Federal Gold Metal 69 gr. BTHP Match
Federal Premium 55 gr. BTHP Match
Black Hills 52 gr. BTHP Match
Black Hills 68 gr. BTHP Match

Handloads:

24.5 AA2460, 69 gr. Sierra BTHP Match
24.4 gr. Win 748, 96 gr. Sierra BTHP Match
26 gr. Win 748, 52 gr. Hornady BTHP Match


Given that information, I'm not impressed by their 2 MOA guarantee for the M-4T with a 16.25 match-grade heavy barrel. The factory loads listed are top tier ammunition so something seems off there. If you're going to spend $2,000 or more on a dgi AR, you should consider a Noveske for sure.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I like Wilson 1911s enough that I've got the equivalent of a pretty decent used car tied up, funds wise, in the two I own. That doesn't necessarily mean they are the be-all end-all of ARs, though -- I'd second the vote to look at Noveske. Might also consider LaRue, LMT, MSTN, and various other high end manufacturers or custom shops.

That said, if you're new to ARs, you might also consider dialing your gun budget back down to somewhere in the $1200 range, which will get you a pretty good AR from various places, and putting some of that budget towards spending a weekend in a class with Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers or one of the other really good instructors on the platform and gunfighting in general.

 

[BlayGlock]

That said, if you're new to ARs, you might also consider dialing your gun budget back down to somewhere in the $1200 range, which will get you a pretty good AR from various places, and putting some of that budget towards spending a weekend in a class with Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers or one of the other really good instructors on the platform and gunfighting in general.

Thank you for the recommendations. If I do get a Noveske or other high end AR I will still go and take a class.

Would y'all say that the Daniel Defense M4 v2 is a good value in term of build quality, accuracy, ect. I am leaning that way.

 

[Tirod]

You generally get what you pay for, what confuses the situation is comparing apples to oranges.

An expensive tactical or three gun rifle is built to offer reliability, not accuracy. Milspec is 2MOA, an 8" circle at 400 yards. On a match course shooting while moving at big silhouettes, not little bulleyes, at less than 100m, it gets the job done.

Trying to outpoint the next guy on the line at 500m, it takes a precision gun. Comparing a tactical Wilson against a precision Les Baer is where things get confusing.

If a nice three gun rifle is what is wanted, shop those vendors, don't worry about the accuracy. It's good enough.

 

[BlayGlock]

Thanks Tirod. That is some helpful advice.