fallout mike
Member
The constitution is all or nothing!! It is black and white! !! There is no gray!! SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!! Where is the gray?
I am a Democrat for RKBA
- Thread starter hm
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I too am a VERY Liberal and voted for Obama twice. I also am the President of my own Corporation which means I own a small business which I've run for two decades (the most successful 4 years of which came from '08-'12), I grew up in a very religious Catholic household, I am an Eagle Scout. I also happen to be staunchly pro-gay rights, pro 2A, own as many guns as I can afford and don't support any AWB, BG checks, etc..
I agree with you and am glad you wrote what you wrote and support the pro-2A cause. I support this cause not because of something as petty as political ideology. Nor do I even support it PRIMARILY because it's something guaranteed as a right under the constitution. My reason for supporting it are two fold.
1) From a sheer practicality and utility standpoint, the best method man has invented for personal defense and protection of self and others is the firearm. The evidence for this is the millions and millions of men and women all over the world who have professionally and non-professionally defended themselves and protected themselves with firearms.
2) I see my possession and use of firearms for defense of self and others closely linked to my sense of community. Protecting my family and our home is not self-contained. It ripples out into my community because my responsibility as an owner and user of firearms means I always have to be vigilant, aware of my surroundings, and in control of my faculties. Because if I'm not, my defense could have dire consequences for others. My job is to make sure that the effect of those ripples is ALWAYS ALWAYS positive. I also find that my advocacy for 2A benefits other in my community by helping them to defend themselves and their family. I see it as, if I do not do my job, someone else is n my community may be deprived of their own self defense.
So for me, being Pro-RKBA fits naturally into the communitarian beliefs that undergird my Liberal political ideology.
Many people on THR are going to try to shoot down (no pun intended) your rationale and try to convince you you are wrong for being a Liberal. But then, I find that like anywhere in this world, many people here don't seem to accept other peoples' points of view as acceptable simply because the disagree with them. They think it's their place to argue with you about your outlook.
What you've done here is move into a Conservative neighborhood and put up an Obama yard sign. There will be lumps. But, I hope people show you the respect you deserve that comes along with the VERY American and very CONSERVATIVE ideal of individualism. I'm sure if I read the preceding 4 pages of comments in this thread my hope will be dashed.
But a man's gotta have hope. (let the petty make some political snark about that word -- if I gave a <deleted> I wouldn't have used it.)
In other words, good on you, HM.
I agree with you and am glad you wrote what you wrote and support the pro-2A cause. I support this cause not because of something as petty as political ideology. Nor do I even support it PRIMARILY because it's something guaranteed as a right under the constitution. My reason for supporting it are two fold.
1) From a sheer practicality and utility standpoint, the best method man has invented for personal defense and protection of self and others is the firearm. The evidence for this is the millions and millions of men and women all over the world who have professionally and non-professionally defended themselves and protected themselves with firearms.
2) I see my possession and use of firearms for defense of self and others closely linked to my sense of community. Protecting my family and our home is not self-contained. It ripples out into my community because my responsibility as an owner and user of firearms means I always have to be vigilant, aware of my surroundings, and in control of my faculties. Because if I'm not, my defense could have dire consequences for others. My job is to make sure that the effect of those ripples is ALWAYS ALWAYS positive. I also find that my advocacy for 2A benefits other in my community by helping them to defend themselves and their family. I see it as, if I do not do my job, someone else is n my community may be deprived of their own self defense.
So for me, being Pro-RKBA fits naturally into the communitarian beliefs that undergird my Liberal political ideology.
Many people on THR are going to try to shoot down (no pun intended) your rationale and try to convince you you are wrong for being a Liberal. But then, I find that like anywhere in this world, many people here don't seem to accept other peoples' points of view as acceptable simply because the disagree with them. They think it's their place to argue with you about your outlook.
What you've done here is move into a Conservative neighborhood and put up an Obama yard sign. There will be lumps. But, I hope people show you the respect you deserve that comes along with the VERY American and very CONSERVATIVE ideal of individualism. I'm sure if I read the preceding 4 pages of comments in this thread my hope will be dashed.
But a man's gotta have hope. (let the petty make some political snark about that word -- if I gave a <deleted> I wouldn't have used it.)
In other words, good on you, HM.
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vito
Member
Because there is not a large public concern with how the government is or is not violating the 4th as there is with the 2nd.
The tone you lay out for your position has a lot to do with the rebuttal you will receive. This one sentence alone is sure to evoke criticism of your entire platform. There are no absolutes; just one differing view blows your whole premise out the window.
Back on point. I agree that to win the war on RKBA, votes from both Democrats and Republicans are needed. Have you written your representatives and ask that they support no new gun laws? If they do not support the 2A, do you plan on voting them out of office? If not, then your passion for the 2A is hollow. If you have, then welcome to our camp.
Very well put. There are more than just the 2nd Amendment. But constituencies for those are hard to come by. Ones with money, less so.
Cesiumsponge
Member
People in general are very narrow-minded and unaccepting of others that differ. Doesn't matter what political party, philosophy, religion, or cause you take. Welcome to tribalism.
fallout mike
Member
Im accepting of anyones views. But when you explain your reasons for them for the love of God at least make it sound like you know what you are talking about. Most of the responses here is exactly for this reason. Its contradictory to say the least. And seeing that this is a public forum, you start threads with the expectation of receiving feedback. All kinds.
And yet NEITHER candidate for POTUS in the last two elections has been in lockstep with their respective parties platforms on 2A (or many other issues).
fallout mike
Member
I would be arguing nearly the same things had Romney won. The 2 party system is a colossal failure at this point.
My 2 cents:
The BOR does not carry a multiple choice option. The trick is in the execution, which is abhorrent in the history of our beloved Republic.
Shed your party affiliation, become an Independent and make choices based upon the merits or weaknesses of issues/positions, versus the platforms of ideology. Being a liberal does not mean you HAVE to label yourself a Democrat (and vice versa) or align yourself with absolutist ideology.
Logic is the BEGINNING go wisdom, not the end (thank you Spock).
The BOR does not carry a multiple choice option. The trick is in the execution, which is abhorrent in the history of our beloved Republic.
Shed your party affiliation, become an Independent and make choices based upon the merits or weaknesses of issues/positions, versus the platforms of ideology. Being a liberal does not mean you HAVE to label yourself a Democrat (and vice versa) or align yourself with absolutist ideology.
Logic is the BEGINNING go wisdom, not the end (thank you Spock).
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So can I take it you voted for Mitt Romney? The only candidate for president in 2012 with a history of actually passing an assault weapons ban.
On the single issue of 2A in 2012 we had a choice between a guy who supported and AWB and one who signed one and supported it. But yeah, voting for Obama was the real culprit...
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JFrame
Member
Again -- I use the term "collectively." Which party leader is more likely to have an easier time rallying his respective party to a strong anti-2A position?
I'm not offering absolutes, but just looking at the two party platforms, I find more reason for confidence with one than the other.
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breakingcontact
Member
I thought we didn't do right vs left and/or politics?
I've never been a Dem, but used to understand the conservative Democrats. No longer, merely being an elected official in that party strengthens the party overall and puts them in leadership positions.
Can't have it both ways. If you're a conservative Democrat, need to come on over to the right where you belong.
I don't care for most of the politicians in DC or the whole two party corporate/union backed system either.
Thankfully I'm in Texas. Rick Perry for President of Texas.
I've never been a Dem, but used to understand the conservative Democrats. No longer, merely being an elected official in that party strengthens the party overall and puts them in leadership positions.
Can't have it both ways. If you're a conservative Democrat, need to come on over to the right where you belong.
I don't care for most of the politicians in DC or the whole two party corporate/union backed system either.
Thankfully I'm in Texas. Rick Perry for President of Texas.
I find that through history both party leaders have had a very easy time of rejecting the respective platforms when it suited them yet have problems rallying their respective far-wings to do the same.
fallout mike
Member
Gossamer, there were other candidates for president. Some people vote on values and not the lesser of 2 evils. This is why we have a 2 party system. Its all a horse and pony show. Choice 1 wants to take x away, choice 2 wants to take x & y away. Gosh, I guess ill vote for #1. Many people vote this way bc they don't even know there are more people running, maybe even you considering you just assumed Paul voted for Romney. The MSM doesn't even hardly acknowledge any other candidate besides D or R. This is not how it should be.
JFrame
Member
Honestly -- I don't know what party you're looking at, but you don't think that the far wing of the Democrat Party is driving their policies?
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Arkansas Paul
Member
Yeah, that Einstein guy was a drooling moron. What notable thing did he ever do?
You can take whatever you like, but it doesn't make it true.
There were more than 2 candidates on my ballot, not just the jackass and the elephant.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I didn't mean to imply conspiracy at all. My point is to illustrate and rebuke the underlying philosophy.
Is this something the government SHOULD be doing for "US"? No. It is not. The founders did not intend it, with grave and significant reason, and we do not need or want it now.
The government needs to be OUT of the business of controlling arms.
Njal Thorgeirsson
Member
Although I didn't read all 5 pages of responses here, I read the first and I have realized that I am probably in the minority of people who respect your opinion.
I agree with all of what you said, actually (although I would not vote for obama). I have no problems with medically-related background checks [although I will wouldn't be a supporter- im sort of indifferent]. I don't believe more rigorous checks could in any way be a step in the direction of gun registration- which every reasonable person should certainly oppose.
What if obama isn't even all that anti-gun? I mean he didn't include anything in his executive orders to restrict gun rights by anyone's interpretation- he just allowed a silly assault weapons ban proposal to move on through- which will almost certainly not pass. It seems like he did the only thing he could to please all the anti-gunners out there, whilst also not doing anything to gravely endanger the state of the 2nd amendment rights.
I agree with all of what you said, actually (although I would not vote for obama). I have no problems with medically-related background checks [although I will wouldn't be a supporter- im sort of indifferent]. I don't believe more rigorous checks could in any way be a step in the direction of gun registration- which every reasonable person should certainly oppose.
What if obama isn't even all that anti-gun? I mean he didn't include anything in his executive orders to restrict gun rights by anyone's interpretation- he just allowed a silly assault weapons ban proposal to move on through- which will almost certainly not pass. It seems like he did the only thing he could to please all the anti-gunners out there, whilst also not doing anything to gravely endanger the state of the 2nd amendment rights.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
I laughed out loud (literally) and stopped reading, because you are either illogical or willfully ignorant. Either way I have nothing to listen to. Sorry.
BTW:
If you were an NRA member you might have known what BHO said he would do in his second term.
IMHO it does matter what party you associate with. I consider myself a libertarian however I have disagreements with all parties. I vote 90% Republican however I am athiest and pro choice on abortion. All that said I believe that the Democrats have shifted too much. My grandfather was a DFL supporter because he was a farmer. IMHO the DFL and Democrats on the hill are more interested in seeing the enslavement of the majority in order to ensure the votes. If you look at all the entitlement programs and how they operate. They are incentivised to keep people on the government dollar. Also your statement about the MAJORITY of Americans voting for Nobama is true but misguided. They MAJORITY of voters voted for free stuff and not because they know the issues or the repercussions of the issues. All you have to do is ask the MAJORITY of the people who voted for Nobama why they did or what the budget is or what the process is for a bill to become a law and you will hear crickets.
fallout mike
Member
Cuckoo- having ammo stored in waterproof containers. Having more than 2 weeks of food in your house.
GiorgioG
Member
What one believes the government needs to be OUT of the business of is subjective...guns, abortion, gay rights, social services, religion, corporate welfare, etc...
I think the one thing to take away from this discussion is, we all have a variety of political beliefs (and we should respect them), but we all believe in the RTKBA. Right? Now let's stop arguing amongst ourselves...there are plenty of other more useful things to do
Moderators...close this up?
" I know it's an uphill climb, but I won't stop until I've convinced everyone."
Here lies my problem with the vast majority of liberals. They seem to feel that if everyone doesn't agree with 'their' beliefs; then everyone should be 'forced' to agree with thier liberal believe system.
Here lies my problem with the vast majority of liberals. They seem to feel that if everyone doesn't agree with 'their' beliefs; then everyone should be 'forced' to agree with thier liberal believe system.
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