I am going to say it - I like the idea of universal NICS checks

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Darn you people are thick.

In short, requiring background checks will not eliminate either the source of black market guns (theft) nor the market for them.
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Who the frak is claiming that it will "eliminate" the source? See my above analogy with showing an ID for buying beer. Just because requiring an ID does not eliminate the ability of teenagers to get beer does not mean that requiring an ID makes it harder for an under age teenager to get beer.

This is not freaking rocket science. Nothing is 100%, but some steps, even if not meeting your admirable standards of 100% solutions, still have an effect.
 
Urg.

That most naturally "good" people already possess a sense of right and wrong, and don't aspire to murder, rape or steal.

"Bad" people lack those things, and will break whatever laws they want.

My point? Good folks don't need laws to be good. Bad folks don't give two steamy deuces about your laws.
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Wow, so the laws are pointless? Urg all you want, I feel the same way.
 
Clean97GTI said:
going by most responses on here about how background checks aren't 100% effective therefore should be abandoned, I guess we should get rid of speed limits, laws against rape and murder. Clearly since people violate those laws, they are ineffective.
While we are going with completely fallacious and logically flawed ideas, let's get rid of laws protecting free speech and religious freedom. After all, censorship happens in spite of these laws.

Do you guys see how ridiculous your argument are?
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About as ridiculous as handing them your free speech and religious freedom. That'll be next after you've rolled over and decided to give in a little to make the Libs happy. That's pure lunacy.

People speed, rape, and kill. We have laws against that. They don't work.
 
Universal NICS checks will have little effect on armed felons. It really will affect firearms acquistion by people who obey the law, but.....

James D. Wright and Peter Rossi, "Armed and Considered Dangerous", (Aldine 1986, 2nd ed 2008, ISBN-13: 978-0202362427), US NIJ Felon Survey of 1,874 felons in 18 prisons in 10 different states convicted of armed crimes. Felons "obtain guns in hard-to-regulate ways from hard-to-regulate sources". A link to the author's summation: http://www.rkba.org/research/wright/armed-criminal.summary.html

Handgun-using felons expected to be able to get handguns from "unregulated channels" within a week of release from prison*: friends (mostly fellow criminals), from "the street" (used guns from strangers), from fences or the blackmarket or drug dealers (who often run guns along with drugs).

Of gun using felons,
50% expected to unlawfully purchase a gun through "unregulated channels";
25% expected to be able to borrow a gun from a fellow criminal,
12% expected to steal a gun.
7% cited licensed gun dealers and 6% cited pawnshops (usually through a surrogate buyer: friend, relative or lover with a clean record).

40% of the felons surveyed reported stealing firearms. Sources stolen from included:
37% from stores,
15% from police,
16% from truck shipments,
8% from manufacturers,
21% from individuals.

40% reported stealing guns, 12% reported stealing for their own use, implying armed felons more often steal guns for resale or trade than for personal use.
 
Bayesian, calling the people here thick isn't going to win your argument or make friends.

You said: Why not repeal all gun laws?

There is a very good argument for doing just that, after all we have many laws against murder and assault and they would do just fine for prosecuting any gun offense.

There are something like 25,000 gun laws on the books, and they have not been effective. Just one more law is going to solve the problem?

I would guess you are too young to remember the situation prior to 1968, where anyone could order a gun through the mail and have it delivered by the post office.

The problem you are having is that you are working under the illusion that gunlaws equate to safety, and they clearly do not. Just as drug laws have not stopped the drug trade.

Swift and certain prosecution helps, but we already have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world.
 
No way. we have to remember, people that sell a gun when someone says they're prohibited is not a legal sale gone bad, that's a CRIMINAL sale from the beginning. Ponder that for a moment. That sale didn't start with one good guy and one bag guy, it started with two bad guys. Can't get on board with this one, the ROI too low, the risk too high if you follow all it's conclusions.
 
Yes, as a matter of fact, a law such as you propose would be useless. In spite of several (many) people giving both logical arguments and FBI stats, you refuse to give up on your reaction of "but we've got to do something...". The people who would comply with said law are law abiding. Self explanatory. Those who would break the law have motivation to do so and background checks would have no effect on either the motivation or availability of black market guns. Period. There's no way to argue the point, you just keep going back to square one and reitterating the same argument expecting a different answer.
 
Bayesian I'm gonna type real slow . Most of us who are against ubc feel that it wont help stop gun violence but it will lead to registration which will lead to confiscation. Talk about being thick. The left will not be satisfied until they have all the guns. Everyone.... every single one. All of them single shots shotguns and probably pellet guns that over so many fps. This is the truth accept it. Then think about what you are saying. Until then it is pointless to argue about this.
 
Agreed. But to get to the point of realizing that, hogshead, a few others around here may have to take a night class in critical thinking. Or maybe just a crash course in common sense. They stop thinking when they arrive at a desired conclusion, rather than thinking through the logical progression of what they are proposing. The kind of people whose last owrds are often "Hey, dude, watch this...".
 
5-10 years from now, our kids will be oh-so-thankful to us for allowing Journal News or some other "progressive' activist rag to list 70+% of gun owners in the US. maybe 80% ? who knows. I'm sure the makeup of the SCOTUS in 10 years will be VERY respectful of the rights of all the people in the central database.

I understand the utopian application of private sales via NICS, but it will just lead to central monitoring, exploitation and confiscation.

Please reconsider support of a central NICS check, if you do support such a thing. Most don't I'm sure.
 
I wonder how many voted for the current joke in chief. Beleiving him when he said he would try to take our guns. He hasnt even started his second term and is already after them hard. These stargazers who support ubc are far worse than the ones who dont know anything about the gun control debate. At least the ignorant wont go round spouting nonsense about giving up rights.I bet most of them dont remember the 94 awb.
 
It's also putting your ability to own property (further) in the hands of a bunch of dim-witted bureaucrats, who know or care little or nothing about what they're regulating in the first place.
Not only does it not reduce crime... I'd say it's likely playing at least a small part in increasing crime. Every regulation, tax, or other barrier always drives a market into the hands of evildoers, no matter what's on the table.
 
bayesian said:
Boy, I'm hesitant to weigh in on an argument that clearly is not going to be won on merits. Seriously, I mean that there's a reason that some discussions are not allowed at the dinner table, because the beliefs that are held are not those that are accessible to reasonable back and forth argument about data.

But, ok, I'll give things a shot: the notion of universal NICS checks is to create friction in the process of procuring firearms in a way where the burden will fall most heavily on those individuals that are intent on procuring firearms for illicit purposes. We can, and should distinguish between mechanisms that specifically address one or a small number of incidents (e..g., Newtown) from those that are meant to address a more general problem. The notion of universal NICS is more the latter than the former.

Granted, if you are a citizen with a spotless record, then some burden will fall on you with a system of universal checks. But, far more than you, the burden of checks will reduce (note, I said reduce, not eliminate) straw purchases, and other means for diverting firearms into the illicit market. If your standard for supporting a particular action, is it is a 100% solution, then I'd be interested in hearing about what birth control methods you use...
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With the imperial presidency in full stride with four more years to go that we know of that is, granting any more control over a constitutional right and a natural right is foolishness for those that understand the history of tyranny.

On that basis alone, private sales should remain private. Since background checks have not reduced gun crimes, the argument for universal background checks falls apart. All we can expect is further infringement upon our 2A rights with no societal benefit.
 
hogshead said:
Bayesian I'm gonna type real slow . Most of us who are against ubc feel that it wont help stop gun violence but it will lead to registration which will lead to confiscation. Talk about being thick. The left will not be satisfied until they have all the guns. Everyone.... every single one. All of them single shots shotguns and probably pellet guns that over so many fps. This is the truth accept it. Then think about what you are saying. Until then it is pointless to argue about this.
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I'm going to type real slow - you're living in a world of fantasy.

That's fine, I like fantasy too, but I can tell the difference when I put the book down.
 
bayesian hasn't mentioned a single specific manufacturer, model, powder, bullet, rifle, accessory or ANYTHING that is tied to a gun hobbyist. 150 some posts of pure politics in overt or tacit support of gun control measures. Join date weeks after Sandy Hook. Draw your own conclusions
 
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I'm shocked at the negative reactions to the OP. Disagree with him/her if you want, but what are there so many posts with a hostile tone? Isn't this THR?

Guess what... I agree with the OP. Background checks through the current system is probably the ONLY thing that makes any sense among all the new gun control efforts. It is the only thing that I see as having any chance of deterring a criminal or mentally ill individual from getting a gun.

Background checks are not a problem. What WOULD be a problem is the government requiring the seller to report that background check to the ATF, or the government lifting identity and firearm data from the background check.
 
Anyone who believe that a Federal background check will not be used at some point for a nefarious purpose is absolute utter fool! The OP has been living in New Jersey for too long. He's getting a contact high of sheeple syndrome from all the liberals in his state and neighboring New York.
 
meanmrmustard said:
About as ridiculous as handing them your free speech and religious freedom. That'll be next after you've rolled over and decided to give in a little to make the Libs happy. That's pure lunacy.

People speed, rape, and kill. We have laws against that. They don't work.
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Are you SERIOUS?

Laws don't prevent crime (FALSE!), so laws are useless? What type of strange world do you live in where there is no incarceration for repeat offenders, and no dissuasion from the penalty of breaking a law?
 
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