MMCSRET
Member
The continuing saga of Smith & Wesson and long gun sales. S&W has been in and out of the shotgun/rifle business at least 3 times in the last 40 years. Must be management change time again!!!!!!!!!!
I-Bolts $325 NIB/$275 After Rebate
- Thread starter JaxNovice
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Ash
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Dude, that I bolt is a rip-off of a Mossberg 800.
Ash
Ash
Wes Janson
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Lol. Now there's a product concept that would actually get them some sales...
SwampWolf
Member
And where do you suppose Savage got the "idea" for their MAUSER-derived bolt-action design? "Ripoff" indeed !
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Yeah, basically if you design a turnbolt gun and you're not Paul or Wilhelm Mauser, then you're a thief!
Ash
Member
Except that the Savage has only three features found on any Mauser, and that is a non-split-bridge receiver, dual forward locking lugs, and an interior magazine. Most of these features aren't even exclusive to any Mauser nor were they created by Mauser.
Ash
Ash
SwampWolf
Member
Well, those three "features" are the essence of any turnbolt rifle made today. Other than the design of the safety, an inferior extractor and a cheaper to manufacture method of controlling headspace, what does Savage offer that is unique to the Mauser bolt-action configuration? I'm not down on Savage (I have a 116SE model that I like very much) but to accuse Smith & Wesson of stealing a design copied by every major company today and for the past century borders on being preposterous.
Ash
Member
None of those features are unique to the Mauser. In fact, most modern bolt-action rifles lack any feature unique to Mausers. The Marlin and Mossberg 100ATR's copy the Savage with the barrel nut, which is a true innovation that provides a level of consistency not available on any Mauser. The I-bolt has only two features in common with any Mauser, and those features are not unique to Mausers, either. The bolt has no feature common with the Mauser except for location of bolt handle.
I, for one, do not see how the I-bolt is a copy of the Savage. It rips more off from the Mossberg 800 than anything else.
Ash
I, for one, do not see how the I-bolt is a copy of the Savage. It rips more off from the Mossberg 800 than anything else.
Ash
SwampWolf
Member
Almost all American-made turnbolts, past and present, are essentially modified Mausers and that includes the Savage 110. Quoting from the tome "Bolt Action Rifles", author Frank de Haas had this to say regarding the Savage 110: "...Aside from the several new features (see the aforementioned references to the three-position safety, the C-type spring-clip extractor and the simplified breeching system), the action is still a 'Mauser-type' having a bolt with forward dual-opposed locking lugs and a staggered-column box magazine."
Ash
Member
You could have called the Savage "Carcano Type" because it has two forward opposed locking lugs and a round profile as well as a rotating extractor. You could call it "Enfield Type" because it comes with a five-round staggered detachable box magazine as invented by James Paris Lee and because the safety is located on the receiver and not the bolt. You could call the later (and current ones) Mosin-like because the Savage uses a detachable bolt head with dual-opposed forward locking lugs which lock into the receiver.
Just because Frank, rest his soul, called it a Mauser type action, does not make it one. His defining characteristics aren't even Mauser-created.
"'Mauser-type' having a bolt with forward dual-opposed locking lugs and a staggered-column box magazine."
Most modern bolt actions share as much with the Carcano, Mosin, or GEW-88 (which Mauser didn't design) as they do with any flavor of Mauser.
Ash
Just because Frank, rest his soul, called it a Mauser type action, does not make it one. His defining characteristics aren't even Mauser-created.
"'Mauser-type' having a bolt with forward dual-opposed locking lugs and a staggered-column box magazine."
Most modern bolt actions share as much with the Carcano, Mosin, or GEW-88 (which Mauser didn't design) as they do with any flavor of Mauser.
Ash
SwampWolf
Member
Mr. de Haas was an acknowledged expert on bolt-action rifles. If he calls it a Mauser type action, it is a Mauser type action. Mr. de Haas is not alone in this opinion. In his book "American Rifle Design And Performance", author L.R. Wallack stated, "...Any turning bolt system is a direct descendant of Mauser's basic design. That even applies to many of today's guns that are operated by gas, lever, pump handles, and recoil. When the breechbolt turns into locked position and its lugs engage recesses in corresponding notches in the receiver, the action is partly Mauser."
Nobody has said that the basic Mauser design hasn't been modified or even improved over time. I took exception to the mistaken notion that Smith & Wesson "ripped off" the basic design of any contemporary turnbolt design that itself was indebted to the original Mauser- and that includes the Mossberg 800 "dude".
Nobody has said that the basic Mauser design hasn't been modified or even improved over time. I took exception to the mistaken notion that Smith & Wesson "ripped off" the basic design of any contemporary turnbolt design that itself was indebted to the original Mauser- and that includes the Mossberg 800 "dude".
Ash
Member
You need some schooling, there, if you want to go toe-to-toe. You obviously have no real grasp of actions, their designs, and their histories. Mausers were not the first turn-bolt designs, with the Vetterli coming long before. The box magazine was Lee's design. The Lebel and its forward locking lugs predates Mauser's forward-locking lug design. I have De Haas's book, by the way.
The basic Mauser design is largely discarded except in the CZ and Ruger rifles, which one could say are updated Mausers. Spend a bit more time reading your books, and try perhaps broadening your scope of knowledge. It is limited at present.
Ash
The basic Mauser design is largely discarded except in the CZ and Ruger rifles, which one could say are updated Mausers. Spend a bit more time reading your books, and try perhaps broadening your scope of knowledge. It is limited at present.
Ash
SwampWolf
Member
You can always tell when a person runs out of logic and facts : they invariably resort to personal attacks and innuendo. I was only wondering how long it would take for you to stoop-and you didn't disappoint. You can take your arguments up with the de Haas's (you may need a seance here) and the Wallack's of the world as my fifty years of experience (thirty of which is in law enforcement and more than a few as instructor and competitive shooter) and my "scope of knowledge"is too "limited" for you.
Nobody was asking to go "toe-to-toe" with you; my manhood is not in jeopardy if I fail to agree with your position(s). The fact remains that most turnbolt actions have a direct lineage to the original Mauser design and if you can't grasp that historical reality, I (nor apparently Mr. de Haas nor Mr. Wallack nor any of the books you referenced that you've neglected to read) can't be of any help to you.
Nobody was asking to go "toe-to-toe" with you; my manhood is not in jeopardy if I fail to agree with your position(s). The fact remains that most turnbolt actions have a direct lineage to the original Mauser design and if you can't grasp that historical reality, I (nor apparently Mr. de Haas nor Mr. Wallack nor any of the books you referenced that you've neglected to read) can't be of any help to you.
Ash
Member
I took exception to the mistaken notion that Smith & Wesson "ripped off" the basic design of any contemporary turnbolt design that itself was indebted to the original Mauser- and that includes the Mossberg 800 "dude".
Glass houses, there, glass houses.
But that doesn't mean you still aren't wrong. Either way, you can quote any number of "experts" you like, but that does little to change simple facts of design and construction. And those facts remain that the vast majority of modern bolt-actions share as many features with early non-Mauser rifles, if not more, than with anything Paul Mauser designed. And, I have demonstrated this already, without need to quote somebody else.
Ash
Glass houses, there, glass houses.
But that doesn't mean you still aren't wrong. Either way, you can quote any number of "experts" you like, but that does little to change simple facts of design and construction. And those facts remain that the vast majority of modern bolt-actions share as many features with early non-Mauser rifles, if not more, than with anything Paul Mauser designed. And, I have demonstrated this already, without need to quote somebody else.
Ash
SwampWolf
Member
No "glass houses" here, sir.
You can believe what you want, obviously, and I really don't care. You've explained your position and I mine. It's apparent that a parade of experts would have no bearing on your thought processes and I have no desire to change your mind. We probably have a lot more in common than you might think so, with that in mind, I wish you the very best and bid you adieu.
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