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I cant decide. AR or Rem.700

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by ndh87, Aug 13, 2008.

?

AR or Remington 700

Poll closed Aug 22, 2008.
  1. DMPS

    49 vote(s)
    46.2%
  2. Remington 700

    57 vote(s)
    53.8%
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  1. ndh87

    ndh87 Member

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    So Im saving up for a new rifle. I just cant decide which one I want. I already have an AK, mosin and a marlin in .44 cal. All fun guns, but none are as accurate as I'd like. I want something that can shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA. My choice is between a DPMS sportical or a Remington 700 VTR ( the funny triangle barrel one) The ones Im looking at are both about the same price.

    The 700 would get a bipod and a nice scope.

    The DPMS would get a decent 2-7 scope, an A2 stock and probably a bipod.

    I know the .223/5.56 ammo is a little cheaper. The AR has a chance of getting banned, etc.

    The 700 i could hunt deer with (i dont hunt often) and it would be good for longer ranges and i could develop a nice handload.

    EDIT: The poll should say DPMS, it was a typo and i cant figure out how to change it now.
     
  2. dogmush

    dogmush Member

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    I voted Remington, because you mentioned accuraccy and it's more inherentlly accurate. But a good AR will get 1-1.5 MOA.

    I also think everyone should have a good scoped bolt gun. I bought my M77 30-06 first and it's still a lot of fun to shoot and my go-to rifle for hunting.

    The cruel truth is you'll probably end up with both, so which do you want first?
     
  3. chaim

    chaim Member

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    I voted for the Remington. For precision shooting a bolt is usually going to outperform an auto. However, check out the reviews on snipercentral.com (hey, precision shooting is precision shooting, and most of those guys shoot at paper anyway, they aren't LEO snipers or military). While the VTR may win on style points, it sounds like the regular 700SPS Varmint and Tactical may be more accurate than the VTR and they'll save you quite a few bucks.

    Oh yeah:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. publiuss

    publiuss Member

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    You never stated what caliber 700 you were looking at. Nevertheless, I would go ahead and get the AR, no telling what the Dems will cook up after the election. You can get the 700 later. They will both go up in price with time of course, but in my opinion the AR will go up at a faster pace.
     
  5. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Does the funny triangle barrel improve accuracy?

    No bipod. They SUCK for precision accuracy. They're fine for machineguns. Learn to shoot over a backpack, or something that'll give you a consistent, non-jittery, recoil. Spend that extra money on more scope.

    Good choices, but again, I'd lose the bipod.

    Do you already handload? Don't discount getting a good already-trued rifle with a .308 boltface, and having a .22-250 or .243 barrel made for it.
     
  6. ndh87

    ndh87 Member

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    The bolt gun will be a .308. Bogie - interesting about the bipod being bad for accuracy. Could you elaborate as to why?

    I do already reload.

    And after looking at Remington's website I think the SPS varmit would fit what im looking for as well.

    Either of these rifles would be mainly range rifles but may also be used for varmint removal.

    This is a fact that I came to terms with a long time ago.
     
  7. dogmush

    dogmush Member

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    Bogie, I too would be interested in more on the Bipod issue.

    I've shot bolt guns from Harris Bipods and never found the recoil to be jittery (Or even different then when shooting of a backpack) But when I'm hunting I'm shooting at longest 6-700 yds and shooting at caribou so my definition of precision and long-range might be different then yours. I'm getting back into rifles after a while spent playing with pistols so I'd like to know more.

    ndh87- I don't claim to be a sniper, but I've taken Caribou at the above mentioned ranges and consistantly put my 30-06 on paper plates from 600 yds off my bipod, and have found it to be useful in shooting. It helps machine guns too. :)
     
  8. ndh87

    ndh87 Member

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    After reading the reviews on snipercentral Im leaning more toward the sps varmint than the VTR
     
  9. Jimmie

    Jimmie Member

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    :confused::scrutiny: Maybe that's as well as the issued rifles shoot, but a quality AR will do a lot better.
     
  10. dogmush

    dogmush Member

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    To clarify, I wasen't stating the limit of an AR's accuracy, but rather that a good AR will get the accuracy he specified in his original post. The SDMR's I've seen are significantly better then 1 MOA.

    Maybe the sentence should have gone like this: The 700 is inherently more accutate, but both will meet your stated requirements.
     
  11. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    fwiw, i always get better groups from bags than from a bipod. (heck, i get better groups from a sling)

    but... i still have a bipod or two attached to guns i would take into a field
     
  12. possum

    possum Member

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    i agree you don't have any scoped bolt guns yet so that is a big nod to that side of the descision. But at the same time you don'ty have an ar and imho everyone should have an ar or 2 or 10, so i would say get the ar first.
     
  13. Colt46

    Colt46 Member

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    future banning is more reason for the AR

    You can get an M-700 any old day. Get the AR and laugh when nobody else will be able to buy one in your state.
     
  14. kevindsingleton

    kevindsingleton Member

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    If accuracy is your goal, either gun will likely outshoot you, on any given day, so it comes down to all the other variables.

    If you can hunt with a semi-auto in your area, and whatever you're hunting isn't too big to ethically kill with a .223 Remington round, then the AR will probably be more "fun", overall (more aftermarket gadgets, semi-auto rapid fire, EBR status).

    If you need more downrange punch, the 700 is available in a range of calibers to suit just about any need, up to water buffalo and elephant, and can be tweaked to benchrest accuracy, given enough time and money.

    Asking a gang of self-proclaimed gun nuts to help you decide is futile. We're going to tell you that you need both guns, and some others you didn't even mention! :D
     
  15. moooose102

    moooose102 Member

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    well, for what it is worth, i think the Remington 700 is one of the finest PRODUCTION rifles ever made. i used to have a 300 yard range, and i was pretty good shooting my 300 win mag at that distance with my box stock 700 with a 3-9 redfeild scope on it. now, i wouldnt attempt that long of a shot, because i do not have a place to practice a shot that long. if you want an accurate, long range rifle, i vote for the Remington.
     
  16. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    If you're going to get a .308, I'd get the remington. If you don't mind spending a few hundred more, get a FN PBR (win model 70)- its a far better rifle than the remington.

    If you are going to get a .223, the AR will serve you well so long as you skip the chrome lined crap and get a good DCM match barrel or varmint barrel, skip the flashhiders unless they are indexed with a peel washer, and make sure nothing is pinned to the barrel. I know that some people claim sub-moa accuracy with chromed barrels, but I never was able to get my HBAR to shoot anywhere near that level.
     
  17. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    get the one you want most.....

    it's such an apples to oranges comparison, I don't know how any one can "vote" other than personal preferance
     
  18. bogie

    bogie Member

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    You'll get more consistent recoil over a bag. A bipod will tend to jump and skitter around during the recoil impulse, which is not a Good Thing.

    In accuracy, the thing that matters first is consistency. In all areas. That leads into everything else.

    Plus, bipods get caught on stuff. Tree branches, weeds, etc... Get used to either position shooting or shooting over an improvised -soft- rest.

    (for a while benchresters were filling their sandbags HARD with fine sandblasting sand... Now, they're going softer, because some folks did some testing, and a softer bag is more consistent)
     
  19. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    I would say get the 700. You already have an AK, so your urban combat gun is covered... not to mention the ammo for the AR is almost double the price of the AK ammo. As for the accuracy of the AK... the one I have is not nearly as bad as folks give it credit for. I am consistently hitting a 7" steel plate at 300 yards with iron sights on my Yugo underfolder. That is good enough for me.

    Beyond 300 yards, and AR will not be that much better... the lighter bullet is more susceptible to wind drift, and it loses more of its needed velocity due to the 62grn pebbles it spits. Not to say that AR's are not great weapons... they are excellent weapons. It's just the you will merely be adding a redundant element to your wardrobe by getting one if you already have an AK.

    Now, if you get the 700 in say a 308, you will be adding a new level of diversity to your cabinet. Grab the 700 now, and save the AR for later.
     
  20. chaim

    chaim Member

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    Apparently no, but it does look cool (especially with the built in muzzlebreak).

    Check out the Sniper Central review:

    http://www.snipercentral.com/vtr.htm

    He got an average group size of .858"

    That is good, but compare it to his average in the SPS Varmint and SPS Tactical (rifles that run a couple hundred dollars less) with more traditional barrels:

    The Varmint (http://www.snipercentral.com/remspsv.htm) had an average group size of .725" (.554" with an HS stock off a 700P).
    The Tactical got a .466" average group (http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm)

    Still, the VTR does look pretty cool.

    Not sure how you get that it is a far better rifle than the Remington. Both are well made guns, fit and finish is good on both. While the main advantage the FN PBR may have over the Remington SPS Varmint is the stock, the Remington SPS Tactical and the FN use the same Hogue stock. I also wouldn't say the FN has an accuracy advantage (and Sniper Central certainly didn't find one, their average group size on the FN was .93"). And for all this, the FN costs $200-300 more.

    So how exactly do you figure the FN to be a far better gun than the Remington (or even the better gun). Heck, I even picked the Remington over the current CDNN deal where you can get the FN for around the same price as the Remington.
     
  21. ds92

    ds92 Member

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    IMO the AR is the better choice. If Obama gets into office the black guns are going to be the first priority on his firearms ban agenda. Remington 700's are very nice guns but they aren't going to be affected by the firearms ban (hopefully) so if you decide you would rather have a 700 you can sell your AR and buy a 700
     
  22. Eightball

    Eightball Member

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    The Remington and such have been around for a while, and will continue to be so. AR15 clones could get mighty hard to find after November, much less acquire, depend on who gets elected.
     
  23. younganddumb

    younganddumb Member

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    can you guys stop saying after november b/c no one will be in office till jan.
     
  24. chute2thrill

    chute2thrill Member

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    chaim... I'm liking that 700... That cherry sunburst Les Paul looks mighty fine too!!
     
  25. EShell

    EShell Member

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    JMHO, but if an AR-15 is under consideration, I would suggest buying that first, due to political trends. The bolt guns will likely be available long after future bans of scary looking semi-autos and I would make that my second purchase.

    Not to be argumentative Bogie, but I'd respectfully disagree with much of your generalized bipod criticism.
    Shooting from a good bipod (Harris) and using a decent rear bag (Traid/RedTac) will yield very good results for those that bother to refine their technique. I regularly see 1/4 to 1/2 MOA groups from my custom rifles using a bipod and we regularly shoot steel plates (sizes equivalent to 1 to 2 moa) at 1k plus from our bipods. I regularly shoot tactical matches and get beaten by bipod users too.

    I find a pack difficult to use unless it is filled just so, with the contents arranged just so. A pack full of compressed winter clothing can be very easy to shoot from. A pack half filled with irregularly shaped things like a data book, water bottle and ammo box is worse than a solid slung prone.
    Agreed 100%
    LOL, my pack gives me more of a fit with that stuff than the bipod. I seldom have difficulty with fouling my bipod, since the same muzzle discipline that keeps your muzzle from getting plugged keeps the bipod out of obstructions.
    Position shooting with a sling is an excellent skill and well worth learning. A soft rest has it's ups and downs . . . literally.
    They did find that a bag packed too hard rendered a bounce at recoil that a softer sandbag eliminated. They still use a very fine sand, as well as "heavy" (silicon) sand.

    Of course, everyone's MMV, but I'd suggest that dismissing a good bipod setup out of hand is a mistake. There are certain tricks that come with experience that eliminate many problems that people have when fist trying them out. Also, bipod designs vary, and some are crap. A correctly utilized Harris bipod of correct height is really tough to beat.

    This is a typical bipod/rear bag setup, and this particular .260 shoots 1/2 MOA with Black Hills 139 Scenar factory match ammo.

    [​IMG]


    Properly steered, many of these rifles will shoot to 3/8 moa or less with the same setup, and don't do much better with my Hart pedestal front rest and my Protecktor bunny ear rear bag. You'll notice I do own a "few" Harris bipods, so you know I have actually used them:

    [​IMG]
     
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