I don't want to go boom

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@Slamfire do you have any insights regarding the lifespan and degradation characteristics of primers?

When I asked a Naval Insensitive Munitions expert about the lifetime of primers, he said, with respect to gunpowder, primer lifetime is essentially forever. Forever is a very long time, but then, if the design lifetime of double based gunpowders is 20 years, there are a lot of things what seem forever compared to that. Essentially the lifetime of ammunition is determined by gunpowder stability, not primers.

If you look at this document:

Percussion Primers, Design Requirements. Revision A

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA092511

you will see that high temperatures dud out primers. The USAF developed primer compounds that lasted 3000 hours of storage at 400 F because their standard priming compounds were duding out at 200 F. I would assume that the standard lead styphnate priming compound found in our small arms, should be kept below 165 F temperatures. That temperature is a common high temperature requirement for DoD small arms and ammunition. Therefore, you can assume the commercial primer formulations will be viable in long term storage of 165 F.

I have no idea of the shelf life of the lead free primers. I do know the old chlorate primers would dud out with time.

Primers have a shellac coating over the primer cake. Organics will dissolve that shellac, but from dudding tests conducted by others, it was hard to dud the primer that way. That is probably because, primer cake is soluble in water. And few oils have water in them. I bet that a water bath, following a WD40 attack, will dud a primer, but I have never tried.
 
I'm just concerned that this is becoming a discussion about who is "right" and who is "wrong" instead of what to be concerned with as a reloader, gun owner and responsible home owner/renter. Anyone who suggests their way is the only way and everyone else is just wrong, or who wants to lecture like a tyrant, can leave anytime and I won't miss them.

So, what is your advice to the community on the lifetime of gunpowder? What guidance would you provide?
 
When I asked a Naval Insensitive Munitions expert about the lifetime of primers, he said, with respect to gunpowder, primer lifetime is essentially forever. Forever is a very long time, but then, if the design lifetime of double based gunpowders is 20 years, there are a lot of things what seem forever compared to that. Essentially the lifetime of ammunition is determined by gunpowder stability, not primers.

If you look at this document:

Percussion Primers, Design Requirements. Revision A

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA092511

you will see that high temperatures dud out primers. The USAF developed primer compounds that lasted 3000 hours of storage at 400 F because their standard priming compounds were duding out at 200 F. I would assume that the standard lead styphnate priming compound found in our small arms, should be kept below 165 F temperatures. That temperature is a common high temperature requirement for DoD small arms and ammunition. Therefore, you can assume the commercial primer formulations will be viable in long term storage of 165 F.

I have no idea of the shelf life of the lead free primers. I do know the old chlorate primers would dud out with time.

Primers have a shellac coating over the primer cake. Organics will dissolve that shellac, but from dudding tests conducted by others, it was hard to dud the primer that way. That is probably because, primer cake is soluble in water. And few oils have water in them. I bet that a water bath, following a WD40 attack, will dud a primer, but I have never tried.

Much appreciated
 
So, what is your advice to the community on the lifetime of gunpowder? What guidance would you provide?

Don't store it all in one place. If you store enough powder in one place even an open garage door is not enough vent to allow it to burn without exploding. Just like the Navy ships with as much as they have in storage.
 
Don't store it all in one place. If you store enough powder in one place even an open garage door is not enough vent to allow it to burn without exploding. Just like the Navy ships with as much as they have in storage.

So, no inspection needed of your powder? You are concerned about explosions, but you are not concerned about a house fire?
 
So, what is your advice to the community on the lifetime of gunpowder? What guidance would you provide?
Already said, “Don’t do what I do.” Best advice I can give. Sometimes the bad example gives the best lesson.
As for boxes and shelves and garages and such… well, if it’s working for that person and they have confidence in how they store powder, God bless and good luck.
I would be interested in finding out how many house fires are started annually by improperly stored munitions and powder; and how many don’t start with those but accelerate because of them.
I sure do hope this doesn’t end up with some policat using it for an antigun or antihandloading agenda cause they are getting spoon fed ripe fodder. Arsenal licensing, ammo permits, warrantless searches and seizures in the name of public safety…. That’s right around the corner and some “gun people “ want it more than the antigun people. That’s a known risk.
 
So, no inspection needed of your powder? You are concerned about explosions, but you are not concerned about a house fire?
Inspection? By whom? We don’t live in a police state. Not yet. Slow down and give your fellow human a chance to live as they see fit. You don’t have to agree. We’ve seen some good information here. Don’t start attacking people because that’s not what the discussion is about.
 
So, no inspection needed of your powder? You are concerned about explosions, but you are not concerned about a house fire?

Like I said before smokeless powder is a propellant not an explosive it will go whoosh not boom. Unless you store enough in a place that it can't burn off & creates pressure that when it will explode. So you need to store it in smaller quantity's in a place that if it catches fire it will vent & not explode. Yes it will cause a big fire if it catches but it will burn out & then they can put the fire out.
I inspect my powder myself no one needs to come to my house to inspect anything.
 
Already said, “Don’t do what I do.” Best advice I can give. Sometimes the bad example gives the best lesson.
As for boxes and shelves and garages and such… well, if it’s working for that person and they have confidence in how they store powder, God bless and good luck.
I would be interested in finding out how many house fires are started annually by improperly stored munitions and powder; and how many don’t start with those but accelerate because of them.
I sure do hope this doesn’t end up with some policat using it for an antigun or antihandloading agenda cause they are getting spoon fed ripe fodder. Arsenal licensing, ammo permits, warrantless searches and seizures in the name of public safety…. That’s right around the corner and some “gun people “ want it more than the antigun people. That’s a known risk.

I'm sure there has been more gasoline storage fire than there has been powder fires but you don't see anyone going nuts over the way people store their gas cans.
 
Inspection? By whom? We don’t live in a police state. Not yet. Slow down and give your fellow human a chance to live as they see fit. You don’t have to agree. We’ve seen some good information here. Don’t start attacking people because that’s not what the discussion is about.

I think he meant inspecting your own powder periodically for signs of degradation.
 
I think he meant inspecting your own powder periodically for signs of degradation.

Correct. I asked for his advice, and all he would do is spread the stuff around the house, but never check the powder for deterioration. Also, he assumes that a little house fire won't kill him.

If your gunpowder starts a fire while you are away, then lucky you. Your house will burn down but you won't be home. If your old, deteriorated gunpowder burns the house down, while you are asleep, maybe you won't wake up. Smoke inhalation kills 75% of deaths in fires. A person can die of smoke inhalation in a minute. Given the number of smoke detectors that are not working, due to dead batteries, or just defective, your smoke detector may not go off. And maybe, it will go off, and you won't hear it.

A friend of mine is buried nearby this family. I had to look up what happened, as they all died on the same day. It turns out the family had a kerosene heater in their trailer, and a fire started. Grandpa is not here, he is buried somewhere else. Grandpa ran into the burning trailer to save his grandchildren. Grandpa did not make it out. I don't know if they had a smoke detector, don't know if they heard the smoke detector.

zZQefQx.jpg

Notice, Dad died almost one year later. I have my suspicions about the cause of his death.Given the toy semi tractor trailer, he might have been on the road when his family died.

Call your home owner's insurance and ask them if your insurance policy has exclusions concerning the house and its contents after your hoard of old gunpowder burns the house down.
 
Smokeless powder is a flammable solid, not as dangerous as those 14 cans of BBQ lighter fluid you bought on sale at Lowe's that you store next to the briquettes and cans of paint
 
Smokeless powder is a flammable solid, not as dangerous as those 14 cans of BBQ lighter fluid you bought on sale at Lowe's that you store next to the briquettes and cans of paint

Don't know about that. Deteriorated smokeless powder autocombusts, it does not need an external source of ignition. Lighter fluid does.

Who would have thought cell phone batteries could kill? The fire on the dive boat Conception killed 34 people, and it may have been sparked by a lithium battery charging station.
 
That’s a sad picture of the lost family. It made me wonder...

Of all the house fires we collectively on this forum know about or have read about does anyone here know of one that was started by or was accelerated by smokeless powders or primers?

I’m curious because while I understand (now far better than before this thread) the potential danger/risk, I’m wondering if in the real world we experience it. I’ve never heard of one that actually happened. But would I?

I’m not even sure if after a house fire investigators would search that hard—I don’t know the protocols. Maybe if there were fatalities, but not otherwise?
 
Don't know about that. Deteriorated smokeless powder autocombusts, it does not need an external source of ignition. Lighter fluid does.

Who would have thought cell phone batteries could kill? The fire on the dive boat Conception killed 34 people, and it may have been sparked by a lithium battery charging station.
Here’s a perhaps interesting tidbit—I store my paint thinner, brush cleaner, butane, turpentine, acetone, and charcoal lighter fluid in my shed. But, my smokeless powder and primers in my basement.
 
I'm sure there has been more gasoline storage fire than there has been powder fires but you don't see anyone going nuts over the way people store their gas cans.
I think you’re correct and thus my query above—does it actually happen? You’ll have to go to the Gasoline Users Forum to hear the gasoline misuse discussion.

But I also think gasoline is used far, far, far more frequently by consumers of all stripes—some smart and careful and others, well, you know—and it is more volatile and it’s very frequently used near sparks, hot engines, and being sloshed around in cans from whence fumes come.

I’m hoping reloaders are by their nature more aware of the risks.
 
The only thing it will do is once the pressure builds to the point it can find an outlet, the pressure will bleed off & go "whoosh" it won't explode.

Geez fellas I was just curious how powder is stored. It's your house, your safety, do what YOU see fit. Let's not fight, let's exchange information. Please don't be a tyrant, there's enough of those around.
 
I have to believe that the number of households that have a gas can in the garage or basement far exceeds the number of reloaders that have powder in the house. Also, I'm sure the number of house fires caused by people using charcoal BBQ grills or propane burner turkey fryers on their wooden deck far exceeds fires caused by smokeless powder auto combustion.

It makes sense to open the containers and inspect your powder periodically. If you see/smell anything out of the ordinary, you can dispose of it.

Loaded ammo stored long-term poses a different risk. The fire risk is not so great as powder is contained in small quantities inside the brass case. The risk I see is improper ignition in a firearm, be that a dud, squib, or kaboom.
 
All
I have to believe that the number of households that have a gas can in the garage or basement far exceeds the number of reloaders that have powder in the house. Also, I'm sure the number of house fires caused by people using charcoal BBQ grills or propane burner turkey fryers on their wooden deck far exceeds fires caused by smokeless powder auto combustion.

It makes sense to open the containers and inspect your powder periodically. If you see/smell anything out of the ordinary, you can dispose of it.

Loaded ammo stored long-term poses a different risk. The fire risk is not so great as powder is contained in small quantities inside the brass case. The risk I see is improper ignition in a firearm, be that a dud, squib, or kaboom.
All that seems true and I have read of many house fires caused by grills and turkey fryers but never have I read of a powder or primer related house fire.

Has anyone here?
 
That’s a sad picture of the lost family. It made me wonder...

Of all the house fires we collectively on this forum know about or have read about does anyone here know of one that was started by or was accelerated by smokeless powders or primers?

I’m curious because while I understand (now far better than before this thread) the potential danger/risk, I’m wondering if in the real world we experience it. I’ve never heard of one that actually happened. But would I?

I’m not even sure if after a house fire investigators would search that hard—I don’t know the protocols. Maybe if there were fatalities, but not otherwise?
For some reason Florida seems plagued by heater fires. Maybe it's because we don't have that many cold weeks a year and people forget how to operate a heater the other 299 days a year? Beats me but, yeah, the Florida Fire Marshalls put out flyers, run PSA's, send fire inspectors to people's homes for free to check their heating and heaters, give away fire alarms to anybody who can't afford one....and we still have heater fires every year. As for inspections, you bet they do! Every house fire has a cause and they are really, really good at pinpointing where and how every fire starts, whether it was neglect or deliberate, how it spread, what done to - or not - to put it out, every aspect of every house fire gets investigated. I have yet to read about or find evidence of any home fire started by improperly stored gunpowder - smokeless or black. I'm not saying it can't happen - seems pretty obvious its possible - not saying it hasn't happened - I can't find any data one way or the other - or that it isn't plausible - no data isn't very convincing when other data for other causes, some VERY detailed, does exist - but, I did find data on fires started by pyrotechnics - fireworks - and fires accelerated by fireworks, commercial, residential and agricultural, each one in its own column. But nothing on reloading gun powder or loaded ammunition being the flashpoint of any house fire. I'd like to see how often and where it happens. Something besides hear-say and horror stories.
 
I think you’re correct and thus my query above—does it actually happen? You’ll have to go to the Gasoline Users Forum to hear the gasoline misuse discussion.

But I also think gasoline is used far, far, far more frequently by consumers of all stripes—some smart and careful and others, well, you know—and it is more volatile and it’s very frequently used near sparks, hot engines, and being sloshed around in cans from whence fumes come.

I’m hoping reloaders are by their nature more aware of the risks.
That's why I get a little worried about self-declared experts on the internet - where anybody can act like they're somebody else - talking about inspections in one post while insulting the people who would do the inspecting in another. One post says don't open your powders because it can encourage rot, another says to inspect regularly... well which is it? MilSpec isn't a good comparison to civilian containment on any level - completely different unless you sore tons of 100lb silk sacks of Cordite in your home??? - and in case no one noticed, despite all of the inspections by knowledgeable experts, despite all of the intensive lab work, despite all of the precautions enforced by regulation, fatal accidents due to improper storage still occur in the military.

Be aware, be cautious, be careful but don't become a Henny-Penny living under a rock because you're scared the sky might fall on you. And don't berate other people who don't live in constant fear of what isn't happening. Let's all try to be kind to each other. okay? :)
 
Well many years ago, before such things as the internet I was aware of some things that were dangerous.

First don't store anything flamable in the same area as your heating plant.
Second inspect the containers that hold said products for problems like rust and leakage.
These days with the internet I now have more tools to keep things safe around the homestead.
Had a buddy that used to keep his spare can of motor oil on top of his boiler in the winter to keep it easier to pour. Worked with a can that was cardboard with metal ends but with the new plastic can he had a smoke filled cellar and called the FD one day. I had warned him numerous times about this.:confused:
 
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Not the same as fire started by decomposing smokeless and I know it is just one instance and one set of circumstances but here are the powder can and whiskey bottle that were in my kitchen cabinet when the house burned out. The labels were scorched but the contents were not ignited or otherwise affected.
IMG_0462.jpg
 
Not the same as fire started by decomposing smokeless and I know it is just one instance and one set of circumstances but here are the powder can and whiskey bottle that were in my kitchen cabinet when the house burned out. The labels were scorched but the contents were not ignited or otherwise affected.
View attachment 999511
OMG!! Jim, you left out the most important detail!!!

Was the Jameson's still good?
 
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